Micro-farming Internships

[GaryD]

Hi,

From time to time, I read and hear about these things called internships.

Some people see them as a useful opportunity to acquire knowledge, skills and experience while others regard them as a means of getting labour without having to pay wages.

Claude-Michael Prevost worked at Friendly Aquaponics as an intern. Our very own Damon did a similar thing before he was appointed to manage the day-to-day operations of FAP. We've heard, at length, about Damon's experience and Claude-Micheal details his dissatisfaction with what happened to him in this blog post.

Neither of these accounts speak well of their experience as interns......but they are still widely used.

There's the WWOOFer (Willing Workers on Organic Farms) program which operates in a similar fashion to internships. The workers exchange 4 - 6 hours of their labour per day in return for accommodation and meals.....and the opportunity to learn about organic farming in general.....and specific farming operations in particular.

What's your view of these internships - great way to acquire knowledge, skills and experience.....or scam?

Gary

[ande]

Hi,

From time to time, I read and hear about these things called internships.

Some people see them as a useful opportunity to acquire knowledge, skills and experience while others regard them as a means of getting labour without having to pay wages.

Well isn't that the deal, one get to try/do some practical things without a formal education.
Having trainees are often a lot off woork, to the rest off the crew, it's a wolunter agreement beetwen to partys, and rules/frames in a legal scence.
I think there is a lot off disapointed people in all kinds off buisneses, since the financial crices 2008.

Claude-Michael Prevost worked at Friendly Aquaponics as an intern. Our very own Damon did a similar thing before he was appointed to manage the day-to-day operations of FAP. We've heard, at length, about Damon's experience and Claude-Micheal details his dissatisfaction with what happened to him in this blog post.
Neither of these accounts speak well of their experience as interns......but they are still widely used.
Gary

Yeah sometimes things are differente than you expect, so you move on, or?

There's the WWOOFer (Willing Workers on Organic Farms) program which operates in a similar fashion to internships. The workers exchange 4 - 6 hours of their labour per day in return for accommodation and meals.....and the opportunity to learn about organic farming in general.....and specific farming operations in particular.

My son, was WWOOF'ing in AU/NZL almost a year, and loved the opertunety, to cris/cros Oceanea, low budget.
Just out off college, he colud not aford to go on a 1 year vacation, but swaping a hand for acomedation he could.
A handfull of places was to much woork so he moved on, and a handful places he revisited, at the right season to extend a nice experience.

What's your view of these internships - great way to acquire knowledge, skills and experience.....or scam?

Gary

I gues they can be both?

We've heard, at length, about Damon's

??????? could you elaborate

cheers

[GaryD]

Hi Ande,

I was referring to Damon's claim that he started off as an intern at FAP.......and that he expressed similar concerns to those of Claude-Michael.

Your point about trainees being a drain on the other people working in an enterprise is a valid one....but it has to be a win-win situation or claims of exploitation are bound to surface.

The very least that should happen is that the knowledge and skills being offered during the life of the internship must be clearly documented so that both parties are aware of expected outcomes.

Gary

[Damon]

i've gone into details here, "at length," as gary put it.

refer to this link, http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/5...47/306429ea53/ and on the right hand column you'll see a few blatent lies...

once the "internship portion was over, percentages of the farm were offered... and sadly to say never paid...

now was this an honest offer? or a way for the owners of the farm to "pay" people without actually dulling out the cash?

without any response from the owners of FAP, (before and after publicly speaking out against them) im inclined to assume the latter...

now the wwoofer program is well set up, and applicants know exactly what they're getting themselves into... i've heard the horror stories as well as great things about these types of farms. some stories include a $500 / month budget for food for 30+ wwoofers, and other stories go something to the tune of weekly trips to many beaches at the cost of the farm...

in any case you're going to get the good with the bad... coming from experience, i feel that it is the right thing to do is to promote the good farms that treat people well, and denounce the ones that have a long laundry list of unsatisfied past employees.

my advice to anyone looking to either intern or join the wwoofer program is this. read the contracts to the finest print, and know exactly what you're getting yourself into. do your job, no more no less, or else risk being taken advantage of, and as always, learn as much as possible while at you chosen facility, even if it means teaching it to yourself through trial and error (on a small scale) with the tools provided.

the best part about claude is that him and I never actually met. he got to the farm a few weeks after my departure... i knew he was coming to the farm, but never actually saw his face until he posted that video on youtube. still to this day i havn't met the guy, but im grateful for him posting the video warning people... i just dont have the audio / visual talent to do that sort of thing. lol.

i do know that his time spent there was far worse than mine was... having no official pull meant he was fresh meat for the grinder... that being said upon his departure of that farm he contacted many government officials and agencies about the Friendly Aquaponics farm on all sorts of health and safety issues... that can all be read on claude's blog about it, as well as all of the preemptive written material that he received before going to that farm... much of the paper work he got wasn't included in my introductory emailings... you can tell this by the mentioning of my name in a few of the letters... lol how can i read an email about myself if i havent been there to earn mention? it seems like a silly notion... but i've ben questioned on it before...

also note that if you decide to check out claude's posts the Friendly Aquaponics people actually portray me as the knight in shining armor... it's just disheartening that someone cant paint another person in such a good light and then not follow through with their offers or promises.... makes you really wonder about people.

[Damon]

and gary... it's only a "claim" if it cant be substantiated... if you did your homework, like im sure you have, you've read all of the articles and likes i've posted as proof of my "claims" about my position of their farm. so how can you still call it a "claim," and still not yet accept it as fact after reading the proof from so many outlets?

Hell, the letters on claudes blogsite were written by susanne herself claiming my position, and the news letter that the link send you too, the column on the right hand of the newsletter titles "in the farmiy" was written by tim. both of them owners, and both adding substantial evidence to prove all of my "claims." = ) <--- thats a happy smiley to show im not angry, just pointing out the substantial evidence you asked me for about a year ago. = )

[tpilk]

To Gary's question about internship's in general, I believe they can be beneficial in conjunction with a structured, higher-learning program. Internships have been around forever in many professions/industries. Got a youngster whose 9 month internship led to a great job at a law firm. You always need to read the fine print, as well as make sure all verbal commitments are documented and initialed/signed. It's good business.

That said, it sounds like "internship" was used in place of "free labor" in the examples noted by Gary and Damon. Room and board in exchange for part-time work for a college student, particulalry one interested in a related field could be a great 2-way street. For someone looking to begin a career in a business such commercial farming, AP or otherwise, a person could be quite vulnerable to hollow promises and being overworked. Many of us are taught that hard work and dedication will be rewarded. It's unfortunate that these guys were taken advantage of. No doubt, moving forward, they will certainly be wiser for it. As will the many who have viewed the videos and/or read the strong comments.

My only thought there, is that prospective employers dread drama, in any shape or form. That fact that it is, or is not one's fault, often gets forgotten - you are just seen as a "problem child" and business owners/managers don't want it in their operations. There has been so much activity on multiple site by these guys that I would be concerned about perception, particulalry as bashing an employer, even a very bad one, seldom brings anything positive. It's alway better to just walk away.

I sincerly wish the best for these guys and hope you find great positions in the field.

[Damon]

i probably am missing out on some job offers from internet users that see the comments, but i'm also getting them as well, and for the same reasons.

i've found that speaking out may show a slight against me for calling out a faulty employer, but i've also been approached based mainly around the fact that speaking out against immoral or questionable business ethics shows virtue that's rarely seen in a person of my age. am i exactly proud about having to speak out against a former employer? not really. but do i feel the need to keep others from going through the same mess? most definitely. i've given up on ever seeing a paycheck from those people, but the many thanks that i get via email regarding the firm warnings are payment enough.

it was scarface that said in the world famous movie (and im going to paraphrase because he uses some pretty vulgar language) "i've never messed with anyone that hasnt messed with me first." i dont go out looking for trouble or to start fights, but if one should wander my way, i'll always do whats right to try and rectify the situation, even if that means taking a few to the chin.

so if i miss a few business offers because of it, so be it... at least i know that i'm doing my part to save people from harm. if i have the ability to do something, then i have the responsibility to do something... not all of us can sit on our hands and do nothing while good people get taken advantage of.

[ande]

Hi Ande,
I was referring to Damon's claim that he started off as an intern at FAP.......and that he expressed similar concerns to those of Claude-Michael.
Gary

OK I see a big difference between the two of them.
CM complaining about the hole package as a intern, not getting the propper training/manual/..................
Damon complaining about some wage/money they owe him? as a former employe (operation manager)?
So he seems to have been a "happy" intern for X time, and moved all the way up to running the hole AP operations, wich was viable and werry good,(acording to Damon) except for the owners to pay him and ? blabla................................

I gues, some would? consider it a good opertunety to advance from intern (rookie) to excpert AP'er in such short time frame,with someone elses money/risk (property/system) "free ride" except for time spent. (They were/went bankrupt?) so you get a dividend? if there is such, or?

Your point about trainees being a drain on the other people working in an enterprise is a valid one....but it has to be a win-win situation or claims of exploitation are bound to surface.

Exactly.
There is a set of rules, in any legal internship or aupair or trainee ..... situation for bothh partys to follow/honer, they are differente in AU/USA/EU/Norway/............. Often you get a specific visa to atend if you are a foreigner (not a woork permit) because it is not a "job"
It's a mutual win-win situation (agreement), but from time to time a cover up for exploitation(slavery) involving traficing.......
I think it deepends a lot, on the legal system, maybe in the US its more/less, easy to excploit people (I doubt it).

The very least that should happen is that the knowledge and skills being offered during the life of the internship must be clearly documented so that both parties are aware of expected outcomes.

Yes, indeed.
Around here, it's difficult to take in a trainee/intern, you have to document all very clearly towards the government that it's not a snaky way to avoid tax, minimum wages and all the things that comes with a regular empolyer/employee relationship, beforehand and on the roll, also the intern can file complaints to a spesific office.
cheers

thanks for the link on the chiken machine

[Damon]

ande, just so u know, i expressed all of the same problems as CM did, except i was asked to keep it more on a professional level for this forum. in the beginning i did say the the state of the house was a perpetual wreck, and that the cats pisses on everything. but then that thread was taken down because none of it could be substantiated. so please ande, unless you've been following my story for the whole time that i've been around, please take a seat and shut your mouth.

if you would like the full story i'd be more than happy to send it to you via email or private message as requested by gary.

the fact of the matter is this... when you work and your boss says i'll give you a bit more money next week if you hold off on getting paid this week, you do it, because in your mind all you see is, "if i stretch it out i'll make more." the only thing is that next week never comes... and it drags on. then your boss finds a way to keep you from asking for your pay every week and says "hey, i'll give you 10% of the profits if you can stick it out a bit more." and at that point you're looking at the money comming in and it's close to $10k a month, and the bills are only totallying $3k a month, so you're figuring only a few more weeks until we break even and profits start to flow... except that time never comes... money is mysteriously disappearing from the bank accounts (or just not making it to the bank when it was left for some of the partners to deposit the checks). so if it meant stickin out a rough patch to have a residual income for as long as the farm was alive, just about anyone would do that. what's the phrase? "no pain no gain?"

and as far as not having anything to lose? i've been over this before... just because i didnt pay to set it up, that doent mean my impact on that farm was the increase of production by over 200%. when i got there they were only providing 120 lbs of lettuce once a week. 4 weeks after they gave me control of the farm we were producing 200 lbs twice a week. so really, what does having to foot the bill have anything to do with the impact that someone makes on a project or the amount of money made? you guys are just making yourselves look silly by brining up the fact that i didnt own the farm... your just making it seem like you think it's ok for the business owner to not pay their employees just because they footed the bill to build the facility... if that's the case why doesnt bill gates just stop paying all of microsoft and while we're at it, lets have the presidents and CEO's of the american privatized hospital systems stop paying its nurses... get real guys. to put it bluntly if i wouldnt have been there that farm would have went under many times. it wouldnt have gotten off the ground with it's small harvest yield and weight infrequency. the second time it would have went under was when tame gave me control of the bank accounts to track where the missing money was going... turns out susanne likes to shop on the internet and eat at the Hilo bay cafe for $30 a plate. the 3rd time it would have went under was when the DEA came and arrested them and took them to honolulu in the middle of a harvest day. no harvest means no commercial account with costco. i was there to tell the DEA agents that the harvest was going to happen even it it needed to be done at gun point, but again, not everyone knows this, and again, i can point you all to people that can varafy that it happened. but most of you would rather just let it all sit in obscurity and dont want to validate things because it's easier to give the new guy a hard time when you dont bother to check if what's he's saying is truthful or not... i would expect adults to hold themselves with more class and dignity than that.

and just to head some of you off at the pass on that last statement. $30k of backed wages plus 10% of the last 2 years profits is a pretty good reason for me to act the way i am. and for anyone to say that they'd act otherwise is a blatant lie. i've never said anything that couldnt be proven by a simple trip to their farm, or an even simpler stroll through the internet. hell most of the "claims" i made about the cats peeing on everything can be seen from outside of their property.

[Damon]

then again, if someone wants to hire me and doesn't want to have to worry about what i say then all they have to do is have me sign a non-disclosure agreement. big tobacco has been doing it with their settlements for years.

currently at my job, everyone hired signs an agreement, or a contract since it's on paper, stating that for any reason, at anytime, you can be fired without warning. also on that piece of paper it's says we are subject to random drug tests and drug tests based on suspicion. so really when going into business you can set up a contract that resembles a marriage prenuptial agreement. any good business person would know about these kinds of contracts, and i'd openly accept to any of them... well, except that no competition one just yet... that one kind of puts a thorn in my side because it limits the power and leverage of the employed... basically makes it to where anything you do to gain a foot hold in a company is worthless because you can no longer take your talents elsewhere if you're mistreated... but then again, just as long as the paychecks keep coming, then there shouldnt be an issue... it just feels to me that a no competition agreement is just unfair to say the least...