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Thread: CSA experience and advice

  1. #1

    CSA experience and advice

    Hi guys,
    Gary mentioned to me in another post that he recommended I look at CSA. I have done a bit of digging on it, so I am now reasonably educated on what its all about.
    I actually came across an operation here in Brisbane called http://www.foodconnect.com.au
    . They seem to be following the CSA concept well.
    Some rough numbers I did are:
    Typical sale price is $40 a week per 'fruit and vegie pack' (small family)
    $40 * 125 packs per month = $5000
    ~ Equates to 33 packs per week.
    Of course the $5K does not include any of the costs. So assuming that your costs (not setup, just operational and inputs) are 1/3rd again you would need to sell roughly 175 packs per month (40 per week) to cover them.

    My estimation then is that an aquaponics/organics farming operation of a reasonably small size would be to produce this, and would be able to get the numbers (40 families) without too much difficulty from immediate and extended family and friends, and friends of friends etc. I need to follow up on this assumption with some more quantative research, and if anyone has any information to share on this I would be interested. There isnt a lot of hard data around on the subject, although there are some breadcrumbs around concering density and yield of certain popular crops such as lettuce and tomatoes. It doesnt seem as if broader good quality research has been conducted.

    From the new farmers point of view there is a lot of work to be done in researching, preparation and setup. There are also costs associated with all of this which wont be immediately recouped. The ability of the aquaponics/organic farmer (integrated farming) to largely eliminate ongoing input costs is a major advantage however.

    In my own situation I have purchased 15 acres of land in a fairly fertile area with a good source of water. I am in the process of doing some planning based on research of traditional farming methods and then applying some aquaponics factors into the equation. In a typical commercial application you would use NFT of floating raft, I am going to go with NFT. I think in terms of footprint on the land and minimizing water volume NFT is a better choice where practical. Of course Tomatoes grow better in bags/pots etc... and potatoes.. well thats a different story all together.

    So, a CSA focused aquaponic/organic integrated food production operation is the goal. A CSA farmer is commerical by virtue of the fact that he is selling product, therefore there are some other commercial realities that come into play as well, and one of these is marketing and customer relationship management. From what I have seen so far this aspect is extremely poorly done on either an industry or individual basis.

    One of the complexities faced by the small CSA farmer is the variety of crops needed to produce a 'pack'. If you were to try to produce the whole range of grains, nuts, tree fruit, vine fruit, leafy vegies, fruiting vegies, root vegies, and herbs/spices then thats quite a big ask! Some CSA farmers even get into honey and jams! And of course there is stuff that we simply cant grow in our area due to climate.. coconuts & bananas for instance dont do well in the sub-tropics. So, carefully selecting your crop mix is important. One other aspect to this is that its hard to be an expert grower on such a wide variety of crops. Doesn't mean I am discouraged from trying, it just means I will prioritize accordingly.

    If you are starting out fresh then getting a crop like lettuce going in a month or so isnt a problem... but getting nut trees, some vine and tree fruit can take years... so my thoughts are to try the dwarf varieties that get going faster, but plant the big ones straight away. Of course you also have to look strategically at replacing those trees as well... a lot to think about on a small operation.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2

    Re: CSA experience and advice

    Hi Jeremy,

    I am a farmer in the central wheatbelt of WA I have converted our farm over from traditional wheat to now grow horticulture crops (pumpkins, rockmelons, zucchini etc) so I know what is involved. I have a production horticulture degree from tafe as well as a aquaculture degree too (although my aquaculture degree is only a level 2).

    15 acres is quite enough land to make a commercial venture quite successful providing good water sources. Something like rhubarb alone would be able to make a good live on that area with quite little capital out lay, the more crops you grow the harder it gets especially if you want something at market every week, it gets much more complicated with seasons, what takes you to grow something in the summer 12 weeks could take well over 20 in winter. And if you go for such an integrated system that’s where things get interesting. Not saying its impossible by no means just a precaution that can only be learnt given several years experience. Oh don’t forget to look into Shire regulations you could be stopped before you get started!

    I wouldn’t recommend dwarf tree varieties I don’t know why a lot of people say that they grow faster and produce more but they don’t. Yes a well managed tree for its size can produce quite a bit of fruit and may crop one or so years earlier but the amount of crop in the first few years in nothing and a normal tree will over yield it in two or so years. The only advantage is higher tree densities can be achieved but is sill in comparison to a normal tree and densities. Think about if they where better in regards to yield then they would become common stock in a commercial planting but they are not.

    For more research on plant production the best website is The Department of Agriculture & Food of Western Australia they are by far better than any other state, but also try Vic & Qld as second best, other than that hard core net searching gets good results as well.

  3. #3

    Re: CSA experience and advice

    Thanks for those insights Jonathan, much appreciated. Although I love Rhubarb and Apple pie myself, I wouldnt have had rhubarb high on my list to grow... who buys it?

    Jeremy

  4. #4
    Management Team
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    Re: CSA experience and advice

    Hi Jeremy,

    For those members who may not be in touch with the acronym......CSA stands for Community Supported Agriculture. CSA is a direct relationship between a farmer and consumers (no middleman) in which a grop of consumers commit to the purchase of a pre-determined weekly parcel of food products. The benefits to the consumers are clean, fresh food at a good price. The farmer gets a fair market price and predictable weekly cashflow. He/she can also schedule crop plantings much more effectively.

    CSA is a growing trend worldwide.....and is ideally suited to an integrated food production set up. While many CSA arrangements are based on fruit and vegetables, there's no reason why they shouldn't also contain any combination of organically grown meat, poultry, quail, eggs, rabbits, fish, farm cheeses, etc.

    One of the complexities faced by the small CSA farmer is the variety of crops needed to produce a 'pack'. If you were to try to produce the whole range of grains, nuts, tree fruit, vine fruit, leafy vegies, fruiting vegies, root vegies, and herbs/spices then thats quite a big ask! Some CSA farmers even get into honey and jams! And of course there is stuff that we simply cant grow in our area due to climate.. coconuts & bananas for instance dont do well in the sub-tropics.
    There's nothing that says you have to grow it all yourself. You can find other farmers who grow the things that you do not and barter with them so that you both have a larger range with which to satisfy your respective clients.

    Jeremy.....glad to see you're making steady progress on your IBFP journey.

    Gary
    "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer

    www.microponics.net.au - for candid dialogue on integrated backyard food production.
    www.urbanaquaponics.com.au - the home of the Online Urban Aquaponics Manual.

  5. #5
    Oops I fell off!
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    Re: CSA experience and advice

    The Department of Agriculture & Food of Western Australia they are by far better than any other state, but also try Vic & Qld as second best, other than that hard core net searching gets good results as well.
    Them Westies again.....Just like thems Texans. Everthin is bigger in Texas.

  6. #6

    Re: CSA experience and advice

    Hi Guys,

    Murray if you check out our Ag dep. web site you will see why it is better, they have a much broader range of crops and its requirements; I have had more help from there than anywhere else, Qld. Ag Dep. I would say is second best. But that’s how it goes in the Wild Wild West.

    Believe it or not rhubarb is quite popular in the right market, perhaps not in farmers markets (I don’t know) but its like dragon fruit and custard apple something that doesn’t seem popular is a steady seller in the right market (I buy both dragon fruit and custard apple when I see it). Rhubarb would be worth considering if the right conditions can be achieved and further value adding in the CSA type of market by way of rhubarb jams, chutneys, rhubarb pie is possible; you never know it may lead to be a major cash cow. For instance I live in a small town of around 1000 people I sell some of my produce to the local IGA store and taking out the middle man that makes bank by doing sweet FA my rockmelons are picked at optimum ripeness selling around 170 fruit (8 cartons) every week (although most of these where my own trial tests) and the feedback is nothing but positive. Additionally, I would say I use around of 60% certified organic fertilisers in combination with inorganic to balance out the difference in plant nutritional requirements. Now hears the thing the produce sold at CSA markets could be said to be organically grown but who is going to know there is no such thing as a taste comparison between organic and inorganic. I have many people ask me in my town is my food organically grown because they think it tastes like nothing else they have ever tasted before I could tell them anything and they would believe it; the reason it tastes so good is a combination of many things good nutritional requirements, good varieties selected (this is very very important), being picked at absolute optimum ripeness; it is not fully organically grown so it cant be that. I am a big supporter of ‘Organic Certified’ produce if people clam to produce something organic it must be certified by an authorised recognising body such as BFA to be considered ‘Organic’ as anyone could lie to squeeze in a few dollars more.
    Its like Aquaponics is inherently organic, but is it? Manufactured feed sourced from food that is not organically produced (which includes purchased fingerlings), in some cases water that is contaminated with inorganic compounds, the list could go a bit further. Even most of its production is free of chemicals and could be easily converted to be organic but it still brings the question could produce be said to be 100% organic if not truly produced organically? Organic production is possible but it must be true.

    Quote Originally Posted by GaryD View Post
    For those members who may not be in touch with the acronym......CSA stands for Community Supported Agriculture.Gary
    Is that aimed at me seems I was the first to respond? They talk about fair trade coffee for the farmers in the third world but I don’t think they get a fraction of the $15.00 in a 500g pack! There is always a bigger picture.

  7. #7
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    Re: CSA experience and advice

    All good points JD,
    We all, just by being on this forum demonstrate that we are wishing to move closer to the ideal of Self Sustainability and Organic food production. The ideals are a long way off, but we must strive to go as far as we possibly can.

    I don't really know if my tomatoes taste any better, but I really think that they do. The fact that I grow them myself actually adds physiological flavour.
    What I do know is that the tomatoes I grow haven't been bathed in a plethora of chemicals and other unknown substances.

    That's got to be good.

    There are people who don't have the time or the ability to grow their own and want the same things as I do.....They will be the market place for my excess, carefully grown produce.
    The fake farmers are soon caught out...Customers who want better are a discerning lot....they can't be fooled for long.

    The plebs will never buy the good stuff. The will buy coloured, flavoured recycled cardboard to eat......look at the drive through section of a well known fast food place for proof of that.

  8. #8
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    Re: CSA experience and advice

    Hi JD,

    Is that aimed at me seems I was the first to respond? They talk about fair trade coffee for the farmers in the third world but I don’t think they get a fraction of the $15.00 in a 500g pack! There is always a bigger picture.
    No......it was in response to Jeremy's use of the acronym 'CSA'........which I sought to clarify for those forum members who might be wondering what 'CSA' meant.

    Gary
    "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer

    www.microponics.net.au - for candid dialogue on integrated backyard food production.
    www.urbanaquaponics.com.au - the home of the Online Urban Aquaponics Manual.

  9. #9

    Re: CSA experience and advice

    Hi Gary,

    Do you have any specific information on how I might contact CSA organizations to get the ball rolling with supplying? Is it best to try to work through an established outfit (in which case do you have any recommendations as to who), or is it smarter just to go it alone? It seems that a lot of the aquaponics/hydroponics/organics enthusiasts do tend to go it alone, which may be the reason why things have been slow to take off. Interestingly I sent an email to the guys at foodconnect.com.au a few weeks ago and have heard nothing from them. This didn't surprise me with this type of business, but it is disappointing still.

    Why does it seem so hard to get some basic help from these guys? After all, all that being sought is some advice, metrics and help in getting produce into the market through the CSA route. Are they naively trying to protect their own interests are or they just basically lousy business people?

    Given your background perhaps you can shed some light on this.

    Jeremy

  10. #10

    Re: CSA experience and advice

    Jeremy,

    Why not put some adds in the local and state newspapers you never know you may get a response. What do you have to loose?

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