Future By Design

[GaryD]

Hi,

I was roaming around my local library recently and I happened across a DVD called Future by Design. It features the work of Jacque Fresco......a US-based futurist and visionary.

The Venus Project web site also links to the Zeitgeist Movement......an extension of Fresco's work around resource-based economies.

He's 94 years old.......and his 2010 travel schedule makes me tired just looking at it.

If you're interested in seeing a genius at work, visit here.

Interesting stuff!


Gary

PS.......if this post looks familiar, that's because I put something similar in my thread "The Story of Stuff"........but it got lost in the philosophical meanderings of mornings and Arachdog. I thought it deserved a better fate so here it is again.......GD.

[Jagungal]

It's just communism ..... they can call it what they like and make all sorts of claims about using technology to solve the problems that communism has but it's still communism.

[mornings]

...if this post looks familiar, that's because I put something similar in my thread "The Story of Stuff"........but it got lost in the philosophical meanderings of mornings and Arachdog. I thought it deserved a better fate so here it is again.......GD.

Gary,

For some reason that page doesn't load. Although, I did read about the Venus project on Wikipedia. Not sure it is communism but it would seem to need a dictatorship to carry out. It is just another scheme to change human nature by dictum. Throughout history many have tried and almost invariably they end up making the things they complained about, worse.

The old Soviet Union said they could produce shoes for $1 a pair. When they couldn't do it, they just said by edict, shoes aren't important anyway.

And, hey, I tried to stay on "stuff" but you never bothered to answered my question. And, all those "meanderings" are definitely tied to "stuff". "Resource based economy" sounds as vague as "equitable distribution of resources"

m

[GaryD]

Hi mornings,

For some reason that page doesn't load. Although, I did read about the Venus project on Wikipedia.

Must be a local thing......I checked the links and they seem to load OK at my end.

Not sure it is communism but it would seem to need a dictatorship to carry out.

Given the lack of successful, large scale models, I'm not sure what other options for change exist. Benevolent dictatorship (with the ability to press a button and incinerate the dictator once 75% of the people thought that life was getting too bad) may be the only way to get enough momentum to effect a change.

It is just another scheme to change human nature by dictum. Throughout history many have tried and almost invariably they end up making the things they complained about, worse.

It looked like ideas to me.

The old Soviet Union said they could produce shoes for $1 a pair. When they couldn't do it, they just said by edict, shoes aren't important anyway.

The old Soviet Union wasn't a good example of anything positive. I certainly wouldn't include it any discussion of resource-based economics.

And, hey, I tried to stay on "stuff" but you never bothered to answered my question. And, all those "meanderings" are definitely tied to "stuff". "Resource based economy" sounds as vague as "equitable distribution of resources"

Sorry, it got buried somehow in the detail of the "meanderings."

I don't know what or how the equitable distribution of resources might occur. One thing is certain....the current model of grab what you can and screw the rest (which is at the heart of all of the force, violence and crime that you decry) is clearly not working out that well for the planet or its people.

Is the hope for an economic model based on something like give what you can and take what you need any more idealistic than the desire to live in a world without violence or force........particularly since the former is likely to provide the circumstances for the latter?

By the way, I drew attention to Fresco's work as much for its innovative design solutions to things like housing & construction, transport, energy and cities.....as much as resource-based economics.

Gary

[Jagungal]

[/I],

The old Soviet Union wasn't a good example of anything positive. I certainly wouldn't include it any discussion of resource-based economics.

Why not include it in the discussion, everyone else does when talking about the Venus project ? I suggest you do a little Googling. Communism is a resource based economy by their definitions. They too wanted to distribute resources evenly in a socially equitable way - they too failed because human nature - but thats a bigger subject.

Here is a link for you Gary:

http://www.tradecolony.net/2009/08/1...mmunism-redux/

Check the section out where they compare the tenents of the Venus project with Communism, it might be a bit of an insight for you.

[/I],
By the way, I drew attention to Fresco's work as much for its innovative design solutions to things like housing & construction, transport, energy and cities.....as much as resource-based economics.

He is building skyscrapers, sea based dwellings or underground living. Nothing innovative there that hasn't been thought of or proposed before.

I also notice they are saying they are going to do lots of research into new and innovative energy sources, then the world will have limitless supplies of energy. It all sounds so easy to say but I suspect it will be a lot harder to implement. Good luck with their claims about developing fusion reactors.

By the way I hope you don't mind me responding but you did bring the subject up. In the same way I am skeptical about Aquaponics claims from people I just had to comment here.

I don't feel that radical political change is going to fix anything whether it be Communism or Anarchism.

[Ravnis]

I have a vague memory, from my elementary education, of several colonial colonies that set off to create a utopia in the early days of the US. If I remember correctly(and I have slept since then ) all of them died off. At first glance, this seems similar.

[GaryD]

Hi Jagungal,

Why not include it in the discussion, everyone else does when talking about the Venus project ? I suggest you do a little Googling. Communism is a resource based economy by their definitions. They too wanted to distribute resources evenly in a socially equitable way - they too failed because human nature - but thats a bigger subject.

The link you provided was a critique of the Venus Project but didn't look like it had much in the way of intellectual underpinning......and it failed to suggest any alternative.

Why do we have to accept that capitalism and communism are the only two options. I see them as extreme ends of a continuum. Perhaps the answer lies in between.......true democracy.

He is building skyscrapers, sea based dwellings or underground living. Nothing innovative there that hasn't been thought of or proposed before.

Some of the things that he's proposed seem to have been new at the time that he first proposed them ........40 or 50 years ago.

By the way I hope you don't mind me responding but you did bring the subject up.

I started the thread to stimulate discussion......and to discuss ideas......so I'd have been disappointed if someone hadn't responded.

It's obvious that the current way of doing things (growth-based economics) is stuffing the planet and is, by definition, unsustainable.

Do we just lie down and accept that......or there a better way?

Gary

[GaryD]

Hi Ravnis,

I have a vague memory, from my elementary education, of several colonial colonies that set off to create a utopia in the early days of the US. If I remember correctly(and I have slept since then ) all of them died off. At first glance, this seems similar.

The tradition of Utopian literature is a strong one and includes Sir Thomas More's Utopia, David Henry Thoreau's Walden, BF Skinner's Walden Two, Ernest Callenbach's Ecotopia, Aldous Huxley's Island, etc.

The idea of finding a better way of living is also a recurring theme throughout history.......with kibbutzim, communes and other variations on the theme......and is the reason for this thread.

Like bacteria that breed and consume to the point where they eventually kill the host, humans are killing the planet.

Does it have to be that way........or are there alternatives?

Gary

[Jagungal]

Hi Jagungal,
The link you provided was a critique of the Venus Project but didn't look like it had much in the way of intellectual underpinning......and it failed to suggest any alternative.

The link provided showed that the Venus Project is nothing but communism. I thought it intelligently and logically showed that they (venus project) just reword things a little differently. In the end the result is just the same, bit like the book animal farm. If anything lacks an intellectual underpinning, it is the Venus project trying to come up with communism as something new.

Why do we have to accept that capitalism and communism are the only two options. I see them as extreme ends of a continuum. Perhaps the answer lies in between.......true democracy.

I am happy with the current democratic system and how it does things. Sorry but I have been in communist countries and seen how much time they spend on trying to convince the citizens that they have the right way and they have to be good humble workers. Not for me.

We can always change the way things are done in our system, thats the way it is. If you are in a communist system such as the Venus Stuff, you just have to tow the party line - and accept that someone else is going to make the right decision for you - or as they try and say, a computer is going to make the right decision for you.

I started the thread to stimulate discussion......and to discuss ideas......so I'd have been disappointed if someone hadn't responded.

Good .. I try to stay out of the political stuff, people get quite passionate over it.

It's obvious that the current way of doing things (growth-based economics) is stuffing the planet and is, by definition, unsustainable.

Do we just lie down and accept that......or there a better way?

But on the other hand, cutting off your nose to spite your face isn't going to fix things either. Going into some kind of pol pot communist or anarchist system is not the solution either.

The great thing about or current democratic system is that you have a chance to influence government and the way things might change. Many people are doing that right now .. and they are also getting a lot of resistance.

[GaryD]

Hi Jagungal,

But on the other hand, cutting off your nose to spite your face isn't going to fix things either. Going into some kind of pol pot communist or anarchist system is not the solution either.

I don't recall suggesting that we should cut our nose off to spite our faces.......and I certainly never suggested that we should adopt either communism or anarchy.

What I did say was.....

It's obvious that the current way of doing things (growth-based economics) is stuffing the planet and is, by definition, unsustainable.

Do we just lie down and accept that......or there a better way?

The great thing about or current democratic system is that you have a chance to influence government and the way things might change.

You seem to be suggesting that the alternative to communism is what we have now. I'm suggesting that there might be something better than either......perhaps an even better form of the democracy we currently have......where people have a real say in the events that shape their lives.

Gary