Aquaponics, all wet.

[mornings]

I can't seem to get a rise here. So, I'll offer a challenge.

I believe I can show conclusively that vermiponics (as I describe it) will, hands down, beat aquaponics for growing vegetables. It is just as productive but more economical and has less risk of failure.

But, that is not the challenge (although, I will be happy to give more detail on vermiponics). If vegetables can be better grown better in vermiponics than aquaponics, aquaponics devoid of a vegetable justification is washed up, as there are better and more economical way to grow fish. Why do aquaponics?

Happy Holidays all.

m

[Ravnis]

Considering that a lot of systems have worms growing in them as well as fish, I have trouble understanding how worms alone would be "better". Most of us don't intend to eat the worms, but want to eat the fish.

I fail to understand the better more economical ways to grow fish statement. I understand that growing in a pond at lower density has lower overall cost, but also less production per given volume.

[mornings]

Ravnis,

Worms are not simply a substitution for fish.

1) Fish emit ammonia and solids that are not in a nutrient form. These emissions are also toxic. It takes a lot of effort to get these emissions into nutrient form. Worm castes include little or no ammonia; therefore, with worms-only, there is little or no need need for a bio-filter (in fairness, this is not a perfect comparison. Worms do need a small flood and drain bed to live). The worm castes are just about a perfect food for plants.

2) Fish require a lot of oxygen; worms do not, at least not much from the water. A major part of the expense for an aquaponic system is the volume of water and the volume of pumping necessary. The oxygen needed in "vermiponics is more like hydroponics -- just enough for the plants.

3) Fish are risky. Burn up a pump, break a pipe in the middle of the night . . . the fish all die. When the fish die, it takes time to get back up to speed. With worms, it's no big deal.

Right now, e.g., I have a basic problem with my green house (Ignorance mostly. I basically didn't understand what I would need). Temps have dropped in the green house and I've stopped feeding the worms. Plants are OK. Fish would have died (especially tilapia); worms just go into a kind of hibernation. When I fix the GH problem, everything will go back to normal within a day or so.

4) There are built-in incompatibilities between fish and plants, temperature being a major one. Even water flow required for fish can be a detriment to plants.

5) To grow your fish quickly, they need expensive, high protein food (even if you grow your own, it's still expensive). Worms will eat just about anything.

6) Fish have a kind of a sawtooth productivity, that is, you start with a hand full of fish and grow them. At the same time your nutrient output of fish can't exceed, basically, the size of your fish. When you harvest your fish, you start over at the bottom of the sawtooth. With worms, once you have a sufficient population, you simply feed them according to the nutrient need -- the worms are self adjusting, to what ever one feeds them.

7) I don't sell worms but I could. If you are selling fish, you might cover your feed costs (competing with the Chinese is not easy); Let's be generous and say you can get $8 a pound. Then you've got some very serious handling costs. Worms sell for $15 to $25 a pound depending on volume. One can just dump the worms into a paper bad with some bedding and ship them in anyplace in the US (try that with fish).

In general, one can grow the same quantity and quality vegetables in vermiponics as one can with aquaponics but with a much smaller system; much less operating costs; much smaller investment; less risk.

When I looked carefully at the incremental costs of adding the system with fish to one for only vegetables (either hydroponic or vermiponic), I found that I could grow the fish in a pond for much less (which I do).

m

[Dufflight]

What is vermiponics. Is it just worm in GB's with no fish. I find that in AP there are a ton of worms working away and its the fish waste that they are living on. Growing fish in a pond is okay but at what speed do they grow and will birds end up eating more of them. In a tank you can see what you have and plan around it. You can also grow plants in soil. I know of people that add hydro nutrients to there dirt garden. There plants grow faster and they don't have to build a hydroponic system and run pumps. One guy just grew worms to get rid of the manure from his horses. Once he got over the million + in worms he had to run a light over them at night to keep them in the container otherwise it was like a large red moving blanket in his back yard.

[mornings]

What is vermiponics[?]. Is it just worm in GB's with no fish.

Duff,

Admittedly, vermiponics suffers from something of an identity crisis (I suppose, like aquaponics, once upon a time . . .). I read Gene Logsden's writing and experiments back in the 70s for combining aquaculture with agriculture, fish with plants. He had no name for it and the aquaculture people thought he was a nut. 40 years later, a small crowd of aquaponic devotees, say, "was it not always so?"

But whatever vermiponics is, what you describe is not what I do or have. Even though I started out to replace the fish with worms, I quickly learned that,

1) It really won't work well. If you simply deleted the fish from a system that has worms, you will be stuck with several difficult and expensive problems (I know from experience).

And, 2) what I am doing is principally vermi-composting -- in water. It is a world of difference from aquaponics. The science and biology are not the same. Nor are the costs or the risks.

If you have worms with your fish, you are also vermi-composing (and saving yourself a lot of headaches) for about half your nutrient. But, having the fish in an integrated plant growing system makes it a much more elaborate and costly project.

I'm not an expert on pond grown fish, although I have no trouble and very little cost growing catfish in a pond. I have a neighbor who puts Tilapia in a pond in a May and harvests them in September with little problem or cost. But I quite readily admit that growing vegetables in an economic way is my focus. I have been an organic gardener and farmer for almost 40 years, and my proposition is, growing fish, integrated with vegetables, is not the most productive way to grow vegetables.

m

[GaryD]

Hi Dufflight,

I find that in AP there are a ton of worms working away and its the fish waste that they are living on.

Indirectly that might be the case, but my understanding is that, while decaying material does pass through the worms, it's actually the bacteria and other microbes that are their main meal.

And, 2) what I am doing is principally vermi-composting -- in water. It is a world of difference from aquaponics. The science and biology are not the same. Nor are the costs or the risks.

mornings......While I buy the cost and risk benefits associated with Vermiponics, I'm curious about your observation about the 'science' - what differences do you perceive?

Gary

[mornings]

. . . my understanding is that, while decaying material does pass through the worms, it's actually the bacteria and other microbes that are their main meal.

Gary,

I don't think that is true. I don't have my worm book handy to quote, but worms break down and digest various carbohydrates and convert them in to proteins. But they cannot do so on their own. They require that either the bacteria in the gut of an animal pre-digest the food (in the animal's gut) or the food be pre-digested through fermentation (which, of course, is a similar process).

Yes, many of these same bacteria reach and pass through the gut of the worm. The digestive processes of the worm (mostly, enzymatic -- not strong) tend to encourage the bacteria beneficial to its pre-digestor (as it were) and discourage or destroy pathogens. This makes a lot of sense from an evolutionary perspective. The worms not only clean after animals, but they improve their environment -- so they can benefit the worms!

But, I don't remember anything saying the worms actually digest bacteria or fungi or viral material.

All of this is why they are very beneficial to composting.

...While I buy the cost and risk benefits associated with Vermiponics, I'm curious about your observation about the 'science' - what differences do you perceive?

Part of the answer is above.

Fish have a completely different role to play in the scheme of things. Fish are essentially pre-digestors, much like cattle or rabbits or any animal creating manure or even insects. For a plant to utilize the wastes of any of these, there must be a go-between (many are possible). These go-betweens must include various micro-organisms; earthworms can aid this process greatly.

We call the "wastes" of a worm castes because they are not manure and they are essentially plant ready.

I've only touched the surface of the subject here but I think you get the idea. Amazing critters, really! There are about 1800 terra species of earthworms and they mostly have different functions depending on locale and environment. I am told that I have 7 varieties in my garden, none of which are manure worms.

The implications of these differences are important to growing plants, no matter how it is done. The implications, for example, to aquaponics, that is, where worms reside in the gravel with fish effluents, the worms cut costs by basically doubling the nutrient stream and do away with the necessity to filter out fish feces.

Once the fish are not in the system, well, it is those implications I am trying to understand and exploit. Many of these are what are cutting my costs to grow plants.

m

[lazyfish]

I like the direction this tread is going.

I want to utilize worms in my system also!!!! however i don't want to use them to replace the fish as mornings does, only to complement them.

There i was after preparing a lovely Christmas dinner now i am stuck with a large amount of kitchen waste, I have a pretty large AP system, i am satisfied with the production, but i want more. I want a way to add ALL my kitchen scraps and AP waste directly to the AP system, to improve efficiency and sustainability. The aim is to achieve digestion of 100% of the organic waste that leaves my kitchen.

Basically i was thinking of a 55gal drum half fill with gravel and worms that flood and drains very slowly (every other day), you put the waste in the top and the worms digests it underwater(to keep the sent down) then the liquid drains into a grow bed.

That's it, simple i know, i am hoping between the worms and the flood and drain effect this digester can handle the load of a family of four.

but i have no experience keeping worms and don't know if the drum will work, i am currently in the planing\research stage so i will be watching what you guys do closely and using it in my efforts.

[mornings]

Lazyfish,

Worms are a good idea, even if you grow fish and just put the worms in the gravel. In fact, if the system is outside in warm weather, the worms are likely to show up in your beds anyway.

About half the waste from fish is in the form of ammonia they breath out and urinate. The other half is in their feces. But the feces don't break down easily and can give you other problems. One solution is to filter the solids out, the other is to let the worms take care of them and get roughly twice the nutrient from the fish.

They will also take care of small roots and other organic solids that can clog your system.

The worms will adjust their population and size to the organic matter available. Just throw in a few, they will take care of the rest.

If you are going to feed the worms directly, a word of caution. The food must have already been acted upon by bacteria when they eat it. You might want to grind it up, leave it set for a few days. This is a form of vermi-composting but its a little different than the bin variety because it's in water. Be sure the food you put in the gravel for the worms is being eaten/digested by them quickly. If not, the worm food might give your fish a problem.

I'm feeding my worms fermented rabbit food and de-fatted soy bean meal. I ferment the mix for 10 days or so. Then, about 24 hours before I feed a batch to the worms, I add a few tablespoons of ground lime. This reduces the acid in the brew and kills off much of the bacteria. You may not have to do any of this IF the worms are eating up the food quickly. I've added dried soy bean leaves directly to gravel with no problem at all. They eat up quickly. Just be aware.

m

[mornings]

Gary,

I may have misspoken. In Edwards & Lofty's book, "Biology and Ecology of worms" it says,

"The worms ingest organic matter, fungi, protozoa, algae, nematodes and bacteria. This is passed through the digestive tract. The majority of the bacteria and organic matter pass through undigested (although the organic matter has been ground into smaller particles). This forms the casting along with metabolite wastes such as ammonium, urea and proteins. The worms also secrete mucus, containing polysaccharides, proteins and other nitrogenous compounds. . . "[my emphasis]

I'm still not sure this means that worms actually digest the various micro-organisms in any quantity or that they provide nutrient for worms . . . even though they definitely ingest them.

m