Help - 5 dead fish :(

[Castaway]

We have not fed the fish since Monday - so basically for 5 days. Should we still be giving them a sprinkle?

Well I wouldn't want them to starve to death. I'd give them a small quantity of food and watch them eat. Whatever they don't consume after a minute or two I'd get rid of - and stick to that policy for here on. Also throw in a lettuce leaf that you might have in the grow bed. I find the Jade Perch love munching on a variety of leafy salads. Mine love Wong Bok a Chinese cabbage. They prefer that to those pellets.

[GaryD]

Fish don't easily starve to death.....particularly in cold weather.....and five days is not going to be an issue. I'd go with the lettuce leaves....particularly if the water temperature is still a problem. Jades can't metabolise food once the water temperature drops below a certain point.

You may need to re-consider your decision not to provide heat.....particularly if your fish are very small. I carried a bunch of Jades through the last winter but they were well advanced....and very lightly fed whenever the temperature got up to the daily maximum.

Gary

[Burnbrae]

Thanks for the advice. We will toss in some lettuce in the morning to see how they go.
We only lost 2 fish this morning outside in the AP system, and one inside in the aquarium. AP water temp this morning was 22.

Is 20 too cold for the jades? The jades are only fingerlings - the dead ones this morning weigh about 6 grams, but we also have some silvers in there as well that are bigger (6 inches).

Thanks again for the advice - as much as I hate losing all those poor fish, it has reminded us why we tried to start small... the whole AP idea is just so enticing :)

[Dufflight]

I think smaller fish are more sensitive. My silvers and catfish were all large fingerlings and I haven't lost any that I know of. 110 ish . If the cost of heating is a problem then you could always run your fish water through some black poly pipe in the sun. Just have to work out how much you will need. I have 300ltrs on the roof that turns ice cold into warm in one pass. If I slowed it down you couldn't get your hand under it. I can adjust my fish tank(55000ltrs) by 10degrees in winter if I need to.

[Outbackozzie]

Shouldnt be much fishy smell at all, my tank smells like the food only.

[Castaway]

I have 300ltrs on the roof that turns ice cold into warm in one pass.

Hey Duff - you should start a separate thread on this topic and post some pics on your solar experience. As we're heading into winter here in Australia - I'm sure there'd be a lot of interest in how you run your pipes and manage your water temp.

[Dufflight]

Haven't had to use the solar heater for the fish yet. Was set up for when I used the FT as a swimming pool. Really cheap to setup.
2nd hand davey pressure pump $110
300mtrs of 13mm poly $70
Running cost 40cents a day. Be a lot cheaper on a smaller tank. Was even thinking of hooking it up to a hot tub. Run it for 40min and heat the water up to 40degrees.:D

[Crusty]

We are now up to 32 dead fish in total - which is 50%, over the last 5 days. Very sad.
We got some salt this morning and are going to throw it in.
As 3 of teh deaths were in an inside aquarium, I think we can rule out the gum blossom or water temp issues. We ran the tests against the inside tank and the levels of everything are pretty much nil (it has a huge external filter). The pJ inside is more alkaline than the AP system.

the only constant between the two tanks is the fish food, so I have to assume that we may have overfed them. I am now wondering how long we need to leave them before we can start feeding them again.

We were given some fish food by the local fish farmer, which he told us to store in the fridge. The fish loved it, specially the jades, and ate heaps. I had thought it may have been because it was cold, but then Murray and Gary freeze duck weed for them, so doubt if this is the problem.

The guy in the fish shop said that having too much protein in the fish food will affect the water quality and cause fungus on the fish. A couple of the latest dead ones had some fungus on them - but the early deaths did not.

The water temp is between 20 and 21.

So fingers crossed about the salt. Now just to get something to measure the ppt :)

Wow having a bit of a time of it there. A few things come to mind. If you are having morts in two different systems (aquarium and the ap) then we need to find the common denominator. So far we have three things, the fish, the human and the feed. I will see if this can be summarized somewhat.

Feed
I am leaning toward the feed which could be a number of things. You may be overfeeding them. At roughly 70 fish weighing 10 or so grams (700grams of fish) you would not be feeding more than 20 or so grams per day especially at lower temperatures. Check how much you have been feeding and compare with that 20gram estimate. The fish feed size should be half the size of the fish's gape, meaning if their mouth opens to 5mm then the fish feed pellet should be no more than a 2.5mm pellet or they will actually choke on it.

Further on the feed. Check that it does not smell "off" or have any fungus growing on it or look white moldy, just to be on the safe side. If it is throw it about the bottom of the trees in the garden for fertilizer, as it will be toxic and useless as a fish feed.

Fungus
Talking about fungus on the feed. There are not that many fungal diseases of fresh water fish in AU. Silvers, Barra, Bream and Nursery fish can get a dose of EUS (Epizootic Ulcerative Syndrome or "Red spot disease") caused by Aphanomyces invaderis and the other is Saprolegniasis. These are commonly associated with poor water quality or physical damage to the fish. Considering your system is new, I doubt it is poor water quality.

Gum Blossoms
Next on my list of items in the thread is the gum blossoms. There is only a slight risk from Eucalypt trees poisoning your fish. It would have to be in very high doses to cause any issue. Tea tree oil can be used to treat parasites on fish.

Temperature
The Autumn day and night time temps in your area would not be varying greatly, so if your tank is 20 during the day I doubt it would be getting a temp swing of more than 1 to 2c change over night. Would not hurt to test this before the sun comes up one morning so you know in the future.

Water Parameters
Your pH is at a low point where it will be causing stress to the fish. Bring it back up with some form of calcium or magnesium buffer. Check the remaining fish for cloudy white eyes, this will indicate if your pH is an issue, but bring it back up just the same.

Water Changes
I am not seeing any real need to be doing such large water changes. Understand, when ever you do this it causes stress to the fish and mess with the water chemistry, which is something you do not want. A dilution exchange of water should only be done if you have a water quality issue that needs to be rectified immediately.

Salt Treatment
Salt treatment suggested is generally a good idea. Be sure to dissolve it fully before adding to your tank. Keep in mind that if your fish are already stressed, adding the salt will further stress them and from that you will no doubt have further deaths.

[Jonty]

Burnbrae,

Just a thought. Gum blossoms mean gum leaves. Are your gutters clean? If you have large numbers of leaves breaking down in your guttering, there is a chance that the water from your water tank could be anaerobic and have a fair bit of eucalyptus oil in the water. The anaerobic water settles to the bottom of the tank and is the first to be drawn off.

My mate's water got down to 6 degrees last winter, he ran the growbed pumps 24/7. He had over a hundred Jade and Silvers and did not lose any. My experience with Jades is that they are very hardy.

[Castaway]

My mate's water got down to 6 degrees last winter, he ran the growbed pumps 24/7. He had over a hundred Jade and Silvers and did not lose any. My experience with Jades is that they are very hardy.

Hi Jonty - Thats heartening information to know. Hope your mate is correct. It certainly differs from the QLD DPI Govt. experts who say that:


Large-scale mortalities have occurred at temperatures in ponds below 13oC.

More info here (http://www2.dpi.qld.gov.au/fishweb/14076.html)

*Perhaps the experts are over-feeding their fish :D

[GaryD]

Hi,

It's also at odds with the advice I received from Bruce Sambell from Ausyfish. He's been breeding Jade perch from the outset and he says that mortality can be expected at anything below 16 degrees C.

As I indicated in an earlier post, I got mine through last winter with no supplementary heating but they were well-advanced.....and they were in a shed.

Gary

[Burnbrae]

Wow having a bit of a time of it there. A few things come to mind. If you are having morts in two different systems (aquarium and the ap) then we need to find the common denominator. So far we have three things, the fish, the human and the feed. I will see if this can be summarized somewhat.

Feed
I am leaning toward the feed which could be a number of things. You may be overfeeding them. At roughly 70 fish weighing 10 or so grams (700grams of fish) you would not be feeding more than 20 or so grams per day especially at lower temperatures. Check how much you have been feeding and compare with that 20gram estimate. The fish feed size should be half the size of the fish's gape, meaning if their mouth opens to 5mm then the fish feed pellet should be no more than a 2.5mm pellet or they will actually choke on it.

Further on the feed. Check that it does not smell "off" or have any fungus growing on it or look white moldy, just to be on the safe side. If it is throw it about the bottom of the trees in the garden for fertilizer, as it will be toxic and useless as a fish feed.

Fungus
Talking about fungus on the feed. There are not that many fungal diseases of fresh water fish in AU. Silvers, Barra, Bream and Nursery fish can get a dose of EUS (Epizootic Ulcerative Syndrome or "Red spot disease") caused by Aphanomyces invaderis and the other is Saprolegniasis. These are commonly associated with poor water quality or physical damage to the fish. Considering your system is new, I doubt it is poor water quality.

Gum Blossoms
Next on my list of items in the thread is the gum blossoms. There is only a slight risk from Eucalypt trees poisoning your fish. It would have to be in very high doses to cause any issue. Tea tree oil can be used to treat parasites on fish.

Temperature
The Autumn day and night time temps in your area would not be varying greatly, so if your tank is 20 during the day I doubt it would be getting a temp swing of more than 1 to 2c change over night. Would not hurt to test this before the sun comes up one morning so you know in the future.

Water Parameters
Your pH is at a low point where it will be causing stress to the fish. Bring it back up with some form of calcium or magnesium buffer. Check the remaining fish for cloudy white eyes, this will indicate if your pH is an issue, but bring it back up just the same.

Water Changes
I am not seeing any real need to be doing such large water changes. Understand, when ever you do this it causes stress to the fish and mess with the water chemistry, which is something you do not want. A dilution exchange of water should only be done if you have a water quality issue that needs to be rectified immediately.

Salt Treatment
Salt treatment suggested is generally a good idea. Be sure to dissolve it fully before adding to your tank. Keep in mind that if your fish are already stressed, adding the salt will further stress them and from that you will no doubt have further deaths.

This is all fantastic advice, and much appreciated.

The only common things between the inside tank and the outside tank is the source of the water, the source of the fish and the feed. The inside tank has a pH of 7.0.

The water temp is only going down a degree over night - mind you, it has been unseasonally warm for the last couple of weeks.

The feed all looks and smells good - we have 2 lots - the one that Murray provided with the kit, and a crumble that the local fish farmer gave us. The really, really liked the crumble when we tried it one day (a few days before they started going belly-up) - so our belief is now that we overfed them originally, and then the dead ones in the system fouled the water before we found them - and that this stressed the remaining ones.

The nitrate level is getting closer to 20 than 40.

We had expected some losses due to the two lots of torrential rain in the last fortnight, but the only impact has been on the plants
We have been unable to track down anything that will measure salt to 1 or 2 ppt - but I expect most of it has been washed out by now.

The remaining fish all seem rather happy, and happily take the small amount of feed that we are giving them. And they have continued to grow during this time, which given the tiny amount of feed they have been getting, surprises me (but tends to support the over-feeding theory).

It will be interesting to see if we have any more problems when the night temperatures start dropping again.