Yellow Leaves - New System

[Brian & Kaye]

I can't seem to find anything on yellowing leaves in APHQ - sorry!...

Our brand new (home-made) system has been fishless cycling for a few days already. We've planted established seedlings of Tomatoes, Strawberries, Chilli, Parsley and two types of Lettuce.

We did the Seasol 'trick' and have a stocking with half a dozen green prawns doing their bit for the Ammonia (also recommended by our aquarium friend!))

Very first water readings are:
Ammonia - 0.50
Nitrite - 0.50
Nitrate - 10.0

We realise it's early days etc... and maybe we need to allow the system more time to get up to speed?

The leaves are still basically fine on the Strawbs and Tomatoes but after an initial 'spike' - eg; the Lettuce leaves looked great on day 2, some have just started to show signs of yellowing and I guess we want to be on top of any potential probs sooner rather than later.

Hope someone can help or point to previous posts.

Many thanks...

[Outbackozzie]

What level does your water flood too? 50mm below the surface is about as high as you want to go.

[Brian & Kaye]

OOOH! :eek:

I think we're trying to emulate Noah and the 'great flood'!... I'll shorten the flood time. Currently set to 15mins every hour.

Have sepnt some time trying to get the flooding 'just right'... clearly not enough time !

Many thanks Outbackozzie

[Murray]

Also, you may be down on iron in your system.

[Brian & Kaye]

Thanks Murray,

My wife actually just pointed out that the AP lettuce seedlings seems to be doing better than the one's in the dirt!.. will wait a few more days..

BTW - can you use Sulphate of Ammonia in the pond? or is Urea/Clear Ammonia better?

Thanks Brian

[Outbackozzie]

They have used seasol Murray - so I would be extremely surprised if they were low on iron.

Its not the flooding "time" thats the big problem - its the "level". The gravel should not get wet on the surface at all.

Any ammonia that you use must be non foaming, and non scented.

Dry granulated urea has been used by a lot of people, safely. In sensible sized doses though.

[Brian & Kaye]

Geez you guys are a caring sharing bunch - thanks! :D

Because we have the 'raw prawns' cycling right now and not a huge amount of plants we were reluctant to add too much ammonia right now... besides - even our aquarist friend can't find a reliable source of clear ammonia - why?.. 'cos you can make some really great bombs out of it... no more or less than chlorine of course - so why can we get chlorine in 40Kg tubs and can't seem to find clear ammonia?

Hmmmm:cool:

Thanks again for the input...

[fishfood]

pee is a good source of amonia:)

[Outbackozzie]

pretty reliable too, most evenings :D

[Murray]

Forget the Urea, if you can get clear ammonia that is better.....but by the sound of it you don't need to add any ammonia anyway.

[Brian & Kaye]

Thanks guys... in fact Kaye has had me add some to her compost and now she reckons I should be taking your advice and do the same for the tank!..

The neighbours are probably talking already:p

It sounds like there's a business to be had in bottled urine - you could call it 'Raw Ammonia' - and depending on the 'supplier' it could be graded - eg; matured 50+ years or 'vintage brew'. There would be an endless supply for new Aquaponicists who - like me - don't have a clue!!.. profits could go to charity ... yada yada yada... :D

Thanks again - We appreciate the on-going advice.

[GaryD]

Forget the Urea.....

And why is that?

[Murray]

To convert the UREA to a usable form of Ammonia an enzyme contained within a specific bacteria is needed, (urease) that is found in soil but rarely found in a new aquaponics system. This is one of the reasons why people get varying results when attempting to cycle with urea.
It also explains why repeated use of urea in regular dirt gardens (and new aquaponic systems) has ever diminishing results, and why leaf burn occurs because the enzyme needed to convert is either not available or not available in sufficiency quantities.

Urease is an enzyme that catalyzes the conversion of urea to ammonia and carbon dioxide. Certain bacteria that convert urea to ammonia as part of the nitrogen cycle contain this enzyme.
http://www.chemheritage.org/EducationalServices/pharm/antibiot/readings/enzyme/enzyme02.gif
The conversion of urea and water into ammonia and carbon dioxide, one of many biochemical reactions catalyzed by enzymes.
Ammonia changes it's state when passing through Ph 7 making it either toxic or non toxic to fish.

[GaryD]

Hmm! The jury's still out on this one.

Getting a system cycling need not involve plants so the burnt leaves is not an issue for me......and I've always recommended restraint around the quantities of urea that should be used.

While pure ammonia would be my preferred cycling agent, it can be very hard to procure.

Of course, once you've got one system going (or you live close to someone who has an AP system) you've got the best cycling agent of all....the water from an existing AP system.

Gary

[Brian & Kaye]

Hmmm... all very interesting reading - and thanks for the science Murray - it all helps...

Well I've been quiet for a week or so... mainly due to literally watching in amazement as the strawbs put out their long arms, and the new leaves form very quickly on the tomotoes... as for the two lettuce! WOW!... it's just an itty bitty system right now but we're gobsmacked at the growth difference between my wife's veggie patch (dirt) and aquaponics (me)

We planted seedlings in both media at the same time as a way to compare.

It's not a race (well it is really hee heeh) ;) but if it were, I think I'd be 'at market' weeks ahead of her...

Anyway we are taking pix of the whole thing - and whilst for the experienced AP's out there this is probably not such a big deal, you still must wonder why on earth we are not encouraging mass production of food this way or why we don't have more large scale 'community' AP's for all the 'good' reasons we know flows from AP.

[Brian & Kaye]

Oh... forgot to mention we are still Fishless Cycling. Ammonia is quite high but hoping this will start to reduce soon... Does anyone know when we should be changing the 'prawns' ? - :confused:

[Murray]

Is there any Nitrates in the system yet ?

And , yes, there should be an AP system in every village town and suburb. We are doing our best to spread the word.
Everyone needs to keep talking about it, but lets face it, most ordinary folk just can't be bothered to grow a garden of any sort.
It will take a real food crisis of some sort to start people really thinking about their own food production.

[Brian & Kaye]

I do the testing at night... Ammonia is very high - too high?... also only started pH test the other day

DATE TEST RESULTS
10/12/2008 Ammonia 0.50
10/12/2008 Nitrite 0.50
10/12/2008 Nitrate 10.0

12/12/2008 Ammonia 2.0
12/12/2008 Nitrite 0.50
12/12/2008 Nitrate 15.0

15/12/2008 Ammonia 8.0
15/12/2008 Nitrite 1.0
15/12/2008 Nitrate 20.0
15/12/2008 pH 7.6

[Murray]

Your system is producing Nitrate so everything is working....get the prawn out of there and anything else dead, that is producing ammonia and put in your regular fish.
pH is a bit high so apply some lemon juice or similar to assist in bringing it down a bit.
Eventually (pH) it will drift down by itself.
But ammonia is especially toxic to fish at pH above 7.0

[GaryD]

Hi Brian,


Does anyone know when we should be changing the 'prawns' ?
They're obviously still working at producing ammonia based on the figures that you've provided.

You're right......your ammonia readings are higher than they should be, so I'd remove the prawns to give your system a chance to achieve some sort of balance. While you have ammonia, nitrite and nitrate readings, if you persist with the high ammonia levels, you run the risk of the excessive ammonia levels killing off the Nitrobacter bacteria.

When things settle down a bit, it's time to add some fish.

Gary

[Brian & Kaye]

DONE!.... many thanks Murray and GaryD...
When can I expect the Ammonia to drop to zero?

[GaryD]

Hi Bryan,

It may take a week or so......and your nitrite levels should drop soon after.

Gary

[Brian & Kaye]

Thanks GaryD... so I guess we wait!...:D

Apart from re-cycling the water through the grow beds 15 mins every hour during the day and every 30mins at night, is that it??

I think I mentioned in an earlier post we have tomatoes, lettuce, chilli, basil saplings and some garlic bulbs all seeming to be doing ok for the past almost 2 weeks now... is that enough plants?

Sorry if this sounds 'obvious' but I believe the fish go in when ammonia is zero and Nitrate likewise?? ... That being the case, is there a 'critical moment' when the fish start 'doing their thing' and the ammonia starts to build again... I guess we're concerned about getting the balance 'just right' as soon as possible...

If there's another thread somewhere on this specifically I haven't quite found it yet... sorry!

Anyway, thanks again for your help - we'll get some pix up soon... soon as we have a system that's working as nature intended *LOL* - Brian & Kaye

[Outbackozzie]

The time is when Ammonia and NitrITE drop to zero. You can go a bit earlier, but you risk damaging your fish, if not killing them. NitrATE is not toxic unless in extreme concentrations.

You should post pics as you go - its quite nostalgic to look back how far you have come :D

[Brian & Kaye]

Well - you've all passed the test...:) I said we had planted 'saplings' in a previous post below... I had a mental blank for 'seedlings' !!! and no-one picked it up and corrected me publicly... now that's polite!!... I used to run a forum for pet owners... boy you should have seen some of the stuff there...

Anyway I am working on the pix and hope to have some up this weekend..(week b4 Christmas)= '08)

Cheers -Brian