Quietly's System

[Quietly]

My system was initially set up nearly 8 weeks ago.
It consisted of 2 x 270L growbeds, 3 x 500L tanks and 1 x 3000L/hr pump. I used drainage gravel as the growbed media and I put in 30 Silver Perch feeder fish.
Whilst I did wash the gravel I found that the sediment that remained was fine enough to remain suspended in the constantly moving water. This meant I never got to see my fish. After two weeks I dismantled the system and started again.
This time I washed the gravel very thoroughly. 19 of the original 30 feeder fish had survived to that date.
Along with the rewash I also took the time to strengthen the growbed stand and rework the plumbing layout. During the first two weeks I could never get the flow to both tanks correct for the autosiphon towork as it should. The pump I had purchased was not up to the task so I purchased a second pump. Now its one pump per growbed. [Lesson learnt - Buy as big a pump as you can at the start] Also not wanting a repeat of the murky waters I was lucky enough to get hold of a 1000L/hr cannister filter at a good price. This is now attached and runs 24/7.
Over the following 2 weeks I added 10 Gold Fish and another 20 SP feeder fish but immediately after getting the SP's I had problems with the fish flashing. Add to this I was getting a regular visit from a Heron who was intent on a a self serve breakfast each morning :mad:. I dosed the system with an adequate amount of salt and put covers on to deter the feathered thief. The salt remedy worked and I haven't seen the heron for a few weeks :).
Unfortunately problems (although minor) still persist :confused:. I am currently trying to eliminate an algae problem and yesterday noticed that one of the gold fish has fin rot. I have dosed the system with salt again and with the water temp dropping overnight from 19 to 14 degrees C :eek: I will look at ways to cover the system. This should also assist the reduction of the algae.

[Quietly]

A few piccies

[GaryD]

Hi Quietly,

I'd like to offer a few ideas on your system.....

In removing and washing the gravel, you probably killed off any nitrification that had commenced.

That 11 of your fish had died suggests that, at some stage or the other, the water lacked oxygen or that ammonia levels had increased to the point where the fish had become sick.

Of course, if there were no dead fish, it's likely that the heron was the reason.

I agree with you about the pump size thing. In, fact, I'd propose that you opt for a larger pump and an electric timer to control your flood and drain cycles rather than autosyphons. While autosyphons have a certain quaintness about them, they lack the intrinsic reliability of electric timers.

Covering your tank will assist with temperature control and will avoid the algal bllooms that seem to afflict all AP systems initially.

You'll find that, while the cannister filter will clear your water initially, you will spend a lot of time cleaning at your fish grow and create more solid wastes. Now that you've begun to cover your tank (which the fish prefer anyway), your water quality will eventually improve to the point where you can dispense with the cannister filter.

Staying away from Aquarium shops (assuming that's where your goldfish came from) is a good disease prevention strategy. While you may have imported the disease problem, the other possibility is that your fish became stressed causing what sounds a bit like an ICH outbreak. The stress may have been caused by water quality issues or the visiting heron.

Covering the tank will address a whole range of issues including predator protection and temperature/algae control.

Gary

[anniefish]

Hi,
Has anyone tried growing plants such as water lillies in their fish tanks? They just sit in the tank in their pot. Just thought it would offer a natural cover for the fish and might reduce stress. As well as being a nice flower.
Anniefish

[Quietly]

Thanks Gary,
I have no doubt that rewashing the gravel put me back to step 1 and that all of the problems prior to that attributed to the deaths. All of the rework i did at that time and what I've done since would only add to the stress of the system as a whole. See lesson learnt #1 and #2
The heron didn't show up until after this but I'm positive he got at least 2 goldfish.
As for the pump sizing I brought what I thought was right at the time. I was wrong (not by much) but I cost myself time and money by not doing my homework thoroughly enough. See lessons learnt #3
My thinking with buying the second pump the same size as the first one was that when (!!!!) I do up size or start a new system I will get the right size pump then and these can be the back up spares.
The filter was never going to be a permanent feature. I got very lucky that it became available when I needed it most. I plan on using it only as an occasional vaccuum when the tank chores need doing.
Seeing Annies comments in the next post reminded me that I would love to eventually find a way to have floating raft plants. I did have a go at it for a short while and the growth was amazing. Then along came the heron etc etc.
Where the system currently is will be covered with shade very soon. Was supposed to be done by now but......
Gary your comment on Aquariums shops is one that I've learnt the hard way.
I have no doubts that the second shop I went to was the source of my disease problems. From day 1 the SP's were flashing. As these were purchased as feeder fish I suspect the shop doesn't care if something is wrong as the sold fish are not destined to be around for long anyway. See lessons learnt #4

The lessons learnt so far:

#1 Know what work you have to do (and to what standard) BEFORE you start - Nothing worse than doing things over and over

#2 Get your system up and running BEFORE you get the living things that go into it.

#3 Do you homework on every aspect of the system BEFORE you get too advanced. Ask questions of all those you can find that are able and available to give answers.

#4 Aquire the living things from reputable sources. After all, you've done all the hard work to build a system, you deserve healthy fish and plants to go in it

[GaryD]

Hi Quietly,

Investment in pumps (particularly in the 3000 lph range) are never wasted.

Having spare pumps (and a timer or two) enables you to hook a fingerling tank, a water garden or other growing systems into your AP unit whenever you want.

Having spare pumps on the shelf in the event of a failure is a good feeling.

In any case, I believe that running two small pumps is invariably better than running one larger one.....for risk management reasons. If one pump fails, you've still got one working and that will hold your system until you have a chance to discover the problem.

Your system will be better off for the changes you've made.

Gary

[Quietly]

OK…. so I’ve done the concept proving thing and I’ve managed to keep some gold fish and silver perch feeder fish alive for the past three months though the cold spell. (Lost the plants due to the heavy frosts – have since replanted). I am about to put 100 Jade Perch or Silver Perch fingerlings into the system which will give me about 120 fish all up. :)

The system shows readings of 8.0ph, 0.25Ammonia, 0.25 Nitrite and 0.00 Nitrate. This has been relatively stable for a few months. Current water temps are 16.5°C (am) to 19.0°C (pm).

The foreseeable problem is:
The new fish will inevitably produce a spike in ammonia until the bacteria can catch up. I assume this will occur even if I don’t feed for a while.

The questions are:
With ph already at 8.0 how much risk/stress am I putting the fish under? :eek:
What can I do to reduce the ph?
I have added lemon juice to little effect and what does occur is short lived.
I have added calcium carbonate to minimal effect.
A friend does bottled water and the process produces an acidic water byproduct with a ph of 2.5-3.0. The starting product is Gold Coast tap water. If I added some of that would I be creating more problems than solutions?

Thanks
Quietly :D

[Murray]

You may have to add a little PH Down to the system to get it down a little.
I have found that once the system is in balance then the Ph tends to right itself.
Ph Down can be obtained at Aquarium shops.

[GaryD]

Hi Quietly,

pH 8.0 is far too high......drop it back to 7.5 maximum.

In fact, I'd suggest that, at your stage of development you factor in a safety margin and get it back to pH 7.00.

Ammonia will be ten times more toxic at pH 8.0 than at pH 7.0.

If you've used lemon juice to reduce pH and it's risen again, I would conclude that there's something about your gravel that's causing it.

I used blue metal in my new grow beds and the rock dust starts of at pH 9.0. After I'd rinsed it a bit, the pH dropped to 8.0. Then I used 200 litres of water out of my other system and a litre of fresh lemon juice to get it down to 7.2.

Your figures.....0.25Ammonia, 0.25 Nitrite and 0.00 Nitrate.....suggests to me that your system in not yet cycling properly. Using live fish to cycle a system often produces this sort of inconclusive result, which is why I prefer Nitrogen Dosing (fishless cycling).


With ph already at 8.0 how much risk/stress am I putting the fish under?
While you have little or no ammonia in the system, pH 8.0 is less of an issue. When you do get an ammonia spike, however, it may prove deadly.


What can I do to reduce the ph?

Keep using a dilute acid (preferably hydrochloric) solution......small amounts at a time.....until you reduce the pH to between 7.0 and 7.5.

Take it slowly.....sudden changes in pH will stress your fish.

While you might use a pH Down product, these often contain phosphoric acid and will promote the growth of algae in your system. This will prove to be hard to control as long as the phosphate levels remain elevated.


I have added calcium carbonate to minimal effect.

Using Calcium Carbonate will have the opposite effect to what you are trying to achieve. You use that when you are trying to raise the pH.



A friend does bottled water and the process produces an acidic water byproduct with a ph of 2.5-3.0. The starting product is Gold Coast tap water. If I added some of that would I be creating more problems than solutions?


Check to see if the byproduct water has had the chlorine/chloramine removed. If not, use a chlorine eliminator to get rid of it. If it has no other chemicals in it, there's no reason why you shouldn't use it.

Quietly, when do you get your new fish? It may be worth doing something to get your system cycling more effectively before the new fish arrive.

Gary

[Quietly]

Hi Gary,

The new fish haven't been ordered yet. I was hoping for mid to late August but when the system is ready will be the main criteria.


Take it slowly.....sudden changes in pH will stress your fish.

I have found some Hydrochloric acid in the chemical cupboard. The instructions indicate 1 litre acid per 40,000 litres water will reduce ph by 0.1. Doing the sums that means 25ml per 1000 litres = 0.1ph reduction.

If I take a course of action where by I add 25ml acid each 2 days, will a 0.1ph reduction each 48 hours be considered slowly? (My system is actually at about 1200 litres at the moment but close enough for what I am trying to achieve)

Worst comes to worst I will 'manually' beef up the ammonia levels and give it a move a long. :eek: The fish that are in there now have been through hell :o so I think they must be pretty hardy and should handle another bumpy ride until I get the system cycled properly. :D

On separate happens, I am playing with the grow bed drainage system this weekend so if that all works as planned I will post photos of the new set up on Sunday.

Quietly :D

[GaryD]

Hi Quietly,

Premised on the numbers you're provided, I'd give it a go.

.....and I'd get the pH sorted before you start ramping up the ammonia.

Gary

[sillyoldfart]

Just always remember to add acid to water, not water to acid. Good idea to wear safety glasses anyway.

[Quietly]

Hi All, well it has been a while since I've updated the thread on my system.
The change of drainage system has worked well. I removed the bell and housing style of autosyphon and went to the looped tubing variety. Currently running the pump 15 minutes on and 30 minutes off. Have recently added air bubblers so I can now reduce the pumping rate even more. (The drainage cycle used to provide the aeration). I am using a 15min interval timer on the pump.
The Ph is fine now. My numbers from above were a bit enthusiastic as it turned out. I had to only add about 30ml all up to reduce the Ph to about 7.0 It is now sitting at about 7.4.
The frosts has killed off most of the original plants so I have replanted and now the system is getting a move along. Still haven't brought the extra fish (ie well bred SP's) but I did buy some feeder fish just to keep the system running at a higher level.
My original fish are as hungry as can be and appear to be growing nicely (at last). I just have to move the gold fish out and the SP's will get all the food.
Pics to follow later today.
Quietly :D

[Murray]

Great stuff Quietly, looking forward to the photos.
It is amazing the difference once the warmer weather kicks in !!

[Quietly]

Some piccies as promised

1 The simple drainage system
2 The plants on 15 August
3 The plants today
4 The fishies

[GaryD]

Hi Quietly,

Your system is taking shape nicely.

What persuaded you to change from the other autosyphon to the new method? Why are you using an ON/OFF pumping regime for your system ....don't the autosyphons control the water flow?

Gary

[Quietly]

Hi Gary
Previously I was using 1 pump per grow bed and these were going continuously. This was the result of the set up I had created. Whilst the change does reduce the overall flow through of water it now only needs one pump which is on 15min and off for 30 min.
As I have also added the air bubblers I don't have to rely on the drainage to create aeration in the tanks. Therefore I can afford to use the pump in an on/off situation. The timing is still to be finalised but so far I am happy with the results.

Quietly :)

[Murray]

Good move Quietly on the air pump........I have lost my fair share of fish due to "not enough air". My tanks now all have air pumps going around the clock. I now view the aeration provided by the action of the return water is just a bonus to the system.
I also have a 12 volt pump back-up system that cuts in automatically should the mains power go down.
One pump is in the sump to return all the water to the fish tank, and another pump in the fish tank that just pumps water up to create a waterfall effect to provide aeration.
The 12 volt pump in the sump is very necessary, because if the system had just pumped out into the grow beds when the mains power went down, I would have around 1000 ltrs of water coming back into the sump by gravity. I just cannot afford to loose that much water.

[Martin A1]

Hi Quietly,

Nice work on your system.

You and Gary mention "fish flashing". What does this mean and what casues it?

I think I have had a SP fish flashing problem with my first batch of SP which I put in with some pet shop feeder goldfish.

Thanks

[GaryD]

Hi Martin,

You'll find a good explanation of what "flashing" is about......here (http://www.koivet.com/html/glossary/glossary_details.php?glossary_id=1&category=Symptoms).

To be candid, I'm not wild about the idea of using pet shop fish......or any other organism from a pet shop for that matter. I avoid them in the interests of keeping my systems disease-free.

Gary

[Quietly]

Hi Martin
Sorry I have been missing in action lately.
As you noticed I too have had my problems with the flashing fish from a pet store. I have found a reasonable place who really look after their fish but I will only buy feeders from them to keep the system rolling over. My last purchase has been sucessfull with no problems.
Gary's link is a good one and there's not much I could add to that.

Cheers
Quietly :)