conditioning my new system... I need help!

[julieleanne]

Hi All,

i have recently set up an IBC as a temp solution and as an experiment.

i have been trying to get the levels up to were i can get some fish put in but they seem to be staying the same...
ph - 7.8
ammonia - 0 ppm
NO2 - 0 and NO3 -0

i have used dam water (expecting some bacteria) and Seasol. then i removed most (onto the vege patch) and topped up with rain water... my partner has even peed in the water but still no change :confused:

any suggestions from the community would be greatly appreciated.

i have added a couple of photos of the set up so you can see what i have done so far.

cheers,

Julie

[fishfood]

Hi julie you have a great start first is there somewon close by who can give you some sand water or aquariam filter squeezings [local pet shop ect ] if not just get a few gold fish and start the cycling with them with the present temperature it may take a while the seasol will only help to keep the plants alive When starting of in cold weather [patiance is a virtue ] its to late for trout and probley a bit early for silver perch

[Hamish]

You need to feed it every day with a source of ammonia. I used Urea granules. Have a look at my thread it tells the cycling story from start to finish. http://www.aquaponicshq.com/forums/showthread.php?t=467

[GaryD]

Hi Julieanne,

Go to the local garden supply shop and buy some Yates Urea and begin to add it to the water at the rate of 1 tablespoon per day until your ammonia tests begin to register. Keep doing that until your reach upwards of 2.0 on your tests. Your nitrite readings will kick in soon after. When both ammonia and nitrite readings drop to zero, your system will have cycled....and you can expect nitrate readings soon after.

The process that I've described is called fishless cycling (or nitrogen dosing) and it's quick, decisive and doesn't involve live fish.

GaryD

[julieleanne]

Cheers Guys,

i will try the urea trick and see what happens... i have another tub with a couple of goldies and a few yabbies in it which is also breeding up my duckweed population for when i finally do get some Jade Perch; when the system is ready.

good luck in the new place Hamish it will be a big change from the gold Coast... my partner and i have just moved to Murwillumbah from Sydney just over a year ago and just love this area. hopefully we'll get our own place one day too and can then set up a proper aquaponics system (hence my IBC)

Ta again :)

Julie

[Hamish]

Thanks :) seems like a lot of people are escaping from cities to the country.

[Jonathan Dyer]

Why on Earth does anyone recommend 15g of Urea per day to cycle…It wont do **** (its about the same quantity as pee). The dilution rate is tremendous. Yes it will work but the difference is just as slow as leaving it to itself naturally.

If you want to accelerate the process by a few weeks then the addition of a bottle of starter bacteria brought from a pet shop will help. I take it Julie your tank holds about 900L I would increase your Urea dose to 200g; a week later a further 150g; week three possibly 100g. Don’t be alarmed if the readings are a tad high as the bacteria require nitrogen to grow and multiply its there food source so nitrogen is essential. It generally takes around a month to fully cycle. As you already have plants established in your system they will consume the readily available nitrogen. If your readings are too high when your fish are ready to add a simple partial water change will reduce this. Keeping your tanked covered and the more aeration the better will help void off algae blooms and build up the bacteria quickly giving you the best possible start you could wish for.

Keep a close eye on your pH levels and adjust when required; I would also consider adding more bio-filters to your system if that is your only grow bed.

[Hamish]

Why on Earth does anyone recommend 15g of Urea per day to cycle…It wont do **** (its about the same quantity as pee). The dilution rate is tremendous. Yes it will work but the difference is just as slow as leaving it to itself naturally.

It worked fine for me. My journal shows the progress of cycling and the system has been very stable ever since. Can only go off this experience.

[Jonathan Dyer]

Hi Hamish, Its still not much different of what would happen if you just left your water to cycle for itself, your higher water temperatures helped speed things up as well but a teaspoon really doesn’t do much. Look the best one could do is carve perhaps 3 to 4 weeks off a system to fully cycle than that of one occurring naturally. There’s just some added benefits of cycling a system in the shortest possible time than have it cycle naturally over time; it will still cycle no matter what.

[Jonathan Dyer]

I have just checked your Excel doc Hamish.

During your Ammonia readings none of them exceeded 0.5mg/L which is not very high at all when performing a fishless cycle. However at this time you have already added fish to your system on May/28/2008. It was the following day that you experienced this peak of 0.5mg/L and lost 2 goldfish. You explained it as rough handling of the fish but overlooked that your ammonia levels were cause for concern for fish health and based on your other readings I calculated that your TAN had approximately 6% in the un-ionised toxic form, both combined may have been enough to cause your fish deaths. Then again 2 day latter you lost another fish also overlooking the fact that your nitrate levels were fairly high with a distinct jump overnight. The addition of salt helped no end, however, if it was added on the first day you may not have lost a fish.

It was only 7 days from your set up to adding your fish, now can this be called fishless cycling? I understand you were trying to cycle your system with the addition of some fish but the idea of fishless cycling is to let your system fully stabilise for a minimum of three weeks prior to adding any fish, hence reducing fish loses if at all. Your system was far from stable according to your readings when you added some fish and impossible to achieve in 7 days.

[Hamish]

Hi Hamish, Its still not much different of what would happen if you just left your water to cycle for itself, your higher water temperatures helped speed things up as well but a teaspoon really doesn’t do much. Look the best one could do is carve perhaps 3 to 4 weeks off a system to fully cycle than that of one occurring naturally. There’s just some added benefits of cycling a system in the shortest possible time than have it cycle naturally over time; it will still cycle no matter what.
How can it cycle naturally if there is no ammonia added?

[Hamish]

I have just checked your Excel doc Hamish.

During your Ammonia readings none of them exceeded 0.5mg/L which is not very high at all when performing a fishless cycle. However at this time you have already added fish to your system on May/28/2008. It was the following day that you experienced this peak of 0.5mg/L and lost 2 goldfish. You explained it as rough handling of the fish but overlooked that your ammonia levels were cause for concern for fish health and based on your other readings I calculated that your TAN had approximately 6% in the un-ionised toxic form, both combined may have been enough to cause your fish deaths. Then again 2 day latter you lost another fish also overlooking the fact that your nitrate levels were fairly high with a distinct jump overnight. The addition of salt helped no end, however, if it was added on the first day you may not have lost a fish.

It was only 7 days from your set up to adding your fish, now can this be called fishless cycling? I understand you were trying to cycle your system with the addition of some fish but the idea of fishless cycling is to let your system fully stabilise for a minimum of three weeks prior to adding any fish, hence reducing fish loses if at all. Your system was far from stable according to your readings when you added some fish and impossible to achieve in 7 days.
The fish were tiny - 10 fish of about 20mm in 1200L of water. Not big enough to have any impact on Ammonia in the water for cycling purposes.

The 3 fish that died had many scales missing from rough handling.

My nitrate levels now are constantly at higher levels than the system ever got to during cycling with no fish losses.

If I was to start from scratch again I would not bother with the gold fish and go completly fish free until cycled.

[GaryD]

Hi JD,



Why on Earth does anyone recommend 15g of Urea per day to cycle…


I think that a tablespoon of Urea per day will register a lot more quickly than you suggest.



If you want to accelerate the process by a few weeks then the addition of a bottle of starter bacteria brought from a pet shop will help.

A few litres of water from an existing fish tank will do the job even better and it's free.

To be candid, I don't understand how so-called nitrifying bacteria in a bottle even survive the bottling process given their need for oxygen.

Gary

[julieleanne]

Hi,

well the tank as it stands now has 800lt of water and has a very large aeration diffuser (I think thats what its called) and i have also added a small flow pump wave maker which creates a current.

my landlord has given me 2 fibreglass cattle feed troughs on stands which i will use as additional grow beds and will also pipe some of the water out and into the vege garden occasionally... i added an extra outlet with a gate valve to be able to do this to the setup (visible in the photos).

baought the urea today and will start adding it tonight... what about the high ph level now? should i do anything about this?

cheers guys and thanks for all the helpful advice.

Julie :)

[GaryD]

Hi Julie,

Leave the pH high at the moment. Since you don't have any fish in your system at this stage there's no danger and the nitrifying bacteria prefer elevated pH levels. The pH can be adjusted once your system has cycled....prior to adding the fish.

Gary

[Jonty]

Hi all,

Just reading the post and I have to agree with Gary. The bacteria in a bottle has no chance of surviving without oxygen.

You can read about it here http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html

Normally I do not like to posts remarks unless I have evidence to back up the claim. Most of the items on the Internet are rehashed rubbish with no scientific basis of fact.

In this case I have lost my link (and don't know where to find it - bet your all singing Mary had a little lamb). In a nutshell - the Chinese did tests in aquaponics and found the best depth for growbeds was between 300 and 400 mm. Any deeper and the oxygen is consumed before it reaches the lower levels. At the lower levels aerobic bacteria is replaced by anaerobic bacteria. Not what we need for a healthy system.

Regards
Jonty

[Jonathan Dyer]

How can it cycle naturally if there is no ammonia added?

There is enough ammonia absorbed into the water from the atmosphere to act as your nitrogen source to educe natural cycling it just takes longer that’s all.



A few litres of water from an existing fish tank will do the job even better and it's free.

To be candid, I don't understand how so-called nitrifying bacteria in a bottle even survive the bottling process given their need for oxygen.

Its funny why does commercial aquaculture practices recommend them? When bottled they are in a dormant state much like brine shrimp eggs and stabilisers are commonly added but they need to be fresh well within the expiry date or they will die. Yes, a few liters from an established system or mature bio-filter will do the same job, but there is a risk of introducing a) diseased water b) contaminated water (heavy metals etc) I had experienced of this when I was at school we used such water to cycle a system and when we added the fish they all died we got the fish and water lab tested it turns out the cycling water was contaminated. And it came from water that looked healthy we still never found out the true source. So by adding clean bacteria it removes this potential problem, look it may have been one in a million chance but it happened nether the less.

[Jonathan Dyer]

For more technical information I do recommend that everyone read professional texts one that you cannot go past is AUSTRALIAN FISH FARMER by JOHN MOSIG & RIC FALLU with 444 pages it is a thorough guide to all aquaculture practices including re-circulation, marine cage and static pond culture.

[Hamish]

And an essential read for aquaponics is Gary's book - the most information in one place - will really fast track your understanding of all things aquaponic.

[julieleanne]

I've just started reading a book which seems to have some good info... it's Nick Romanowski's Sustainable Freshwater Aquaculture (the Complete Guide from Backyard to Investor).

:)

[Jonathan Dyer]

I have that book. It is by far a complete guide from backyard to investor; the term ‘guide’ must be a broader view point, although any information helps it is by far the best. He also states that Aquaponics is not viable in a commercial perspective and he comes off as portraying it as no-viable over land based irrigation; which we all know not to be true. He also discusses the nitrogen cycle in loose affiliation but really overlooks the process, have a look at the graph on page 43 this is a typical graph showing the ‘spike’ of ammonia and nitrates when establishing a new system. Additionally, Nick Romanowski would be one of a few people I know that doesn’t believe that inoculation bacteria makes much of a difference over natural cycling (Pg 45) even if that be the case there is nothing wrong with trying to establish the nitrogen cycle in the shortest possible timeframe and I can see no reason why such inoculation would hurt.

[GaryD]

Hi,


- the Chinese did tests in aquaponics and found the best depth for growbeds was between 300 and 400 mm.

I would regard that as a good guide to maximum depth for the reason stated but I'd be happy with any grow bed depth down to 150mm.....provided it can be kept moist at all times.

Gary

[GaryD]

Hi JD,


Yes, a few liters from an established system or mature bio-filter will do the same job, but there is a risk of introducing a) diseased water b) contaminated water (heavy metals etc)

Anything that I say about using water from an established system assumes that the system, and the fish in it, are healthy.

I'd be much more concerned about using goldfish from a pet shop (a common enough recommendation in some quarters) than I would water from someone else's healthy AP system.

Gary