Continuous Trickle Flow System and other random stuff

[Jonathan Dyer]

Well guys here it is; this is my system and appropriately named ‘Continuous Trickle Flow’ as that’s what it is. It has been operating well over 2 years now and has produced steady reliable results.

The photo below is one of my grow beds taken December last year growing Cos lettuce I hope to add more photos soon.

[Hamish]

Good to see the pic JD :) I love cos lettuce - especially the fact that you can keep picking the outside leaves and they just keep growing. Brilliant!

[Jonty]

Jonathan,
Nice looking lot of cos. I tried a few different varieties until I stumbled upon Parris Island Cos. The other varieties tended to go leggy and not heart up like Parris.
Regards
Jonty

[Jonathan Dyer]

Hi All,

Here are some current photos sorry about the quality but I have only a camera phone at the moment. There are some Tsoi Sim seedlings emerging from direct sowing into the grow bed this was taken when they were 7 days old. They make a very handy addition to almost any meal.

Another photo of some lemon balm I had planted out. I have noticed some aphids living happily among the foliage of the plants obviously coming from the nursery where I got them from as always. So I have made some homemade tobacco and garlic spray up to wipe them out.

[Jonathan Dyer]

Is there a plot to kill Obama?

[karl]

JD
I am new to this and still in the learning, investigation and planning stage.
Curious that you had no fish death, you're obviously doing something different.
What fish do you keep and have kept?
Can you elaborate on what you think you do different to other people that results in you not having had any fish death to date.

[Jonathan Dyer]

Hi Karl,

I saw your post elsewhere so I will fill you in of what I do here.

I have a TAFE degree in Aquaculture look to be honest it really isn’t much more of a series of qualifications but was a good learning tool to get me started and the knowledge obtained of re-circulation aquaculture has been crucial in understanding the fundamental principles of fish production. I also have a TAFE Horticulture degree that I am still working on (when I can get some free time, I haven’t done much on it for a while) I hope to work up to an Advanced diploma in Horticultural Production just to say I know what I’m talking about as I am a vegetable farmer.

There are a few things I do different but it really comes down to understanding the principles of aquaculture and the physical limits of such system and controlling the environment to suite. They include pH, temperature, ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels, hardness, oxygen, carbon dioxide, electrolyte concentration, water clarity, bio-filtration, mechanical filtration the list goes on in smaller detail.

There is a tone of information on the internet to find out what each fish likes to live in to obtain a hassle free production, some fish are more tolerant of its environment and can adapt quite well where others have a very small margin for error. This alone is a very important factor to consider for a beginner and just as important for an experienced fish hobbyist, the main reason many people experience fish deaths in a new system is not having a balanced environment and obviously failing to control it accordingly, which can almost change from a suitable environment to a disaster in a matter of hours and in some cases such as a power failure a matter of minutes. There are of course deaths that almost cannot be avoided but, we endeavor to reduce the risks of this if the correct procedures are taken. So when choosing a fish that you would like to grow don’t overlook its physical attributes; of course there are other things that you will consider such as its eating qualities, availability of broodstock, ability to breed, grow out time, feed preference, feed conversion ratios (to a lesser degree I think), legislation to adhere to, possibly kosher fish, suitability to be raised in intensive tanks, mixing of similar finfish in the same tank, price of fish and I guess whatever takes your fancy.

My system is growing Koi (Carp) and a mix of some goldfish. They are a very tolerant species, however, saying that I know more people that have had goldfish die on them than any other fish, and the main reason things were out of balance. I will get some photos of them organised soon. Now most people will ask why I am growing Koi a few reasons because I am allowed to have Koi in Western Australia as over east they are not allowed bearing hefty fines as we all know; secondly if really not number one reason there is a large market for breeding Koi and supplying the domestic aquarium trade even through private sales. I would estimate my system is carrying around $2,000 worth of fish now with a few small Koi showing great potential to reach at least $3,000 EACH well I hope. And quite simply they are such an attractive fish, even my solid white Koi; if I was to picture a perfect fish in my mind it would be a Koi.

Over the past few weeks I have been experimenting with the addition of Urea to my system with the aim of increasing my very low nitrogen content so that my plants are not deficient in nitrogen. When finished I will show the graphed readings I have been taking. We all know that Ammonia is toxic to fish however, if certain precautions and adjustments of the system are taken we can reduce this toxicity 10 fold.

Most Ammonia test have the highest reading at 8ppm which you can see it is very low in concentration to be toxic to fish, where most recommendations are to have readings in an established system at 0ppm any higher and there can be damage to your fish and fish deaths are likely to occur soon but this is not always the case. To explain this best the following is an extract taken from http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA031

Quote: Ammonia is a major metabolic waste product from fish. It is excreted across the gill membranes and in the urine. The primary source of ammonia in aquaculture systems is fish feed. When feed is eaten by fish it is metabolized into the energy, nutrients, and proteins used for survival and growth. As with all animals, there is waste produced by these normal metabolic processes. Ammonia is the principal waste product excreted by fish. In trace amounts, ammonia is odorless and colorless, so the only way for an aquaculturist to know if it is there is to test the water.

Of all the water quality parameters which affect fish, ammonia is the most important after oxygen, especially in intensive systems. In small amounts, ammonia causes stress and gill damage. Fish exposed to low levels of ammonia over time are more susceptible to bacterial infections, have poor growth and will not tolerate routine handling as well as they should. Ammonia is a killer when present in higher concentrations, and many unexplained production losses have been caused by ammonia.

In water, ammonia occurs in two forms, which together are called the Total Ammonia Nitrogen, or TAN. Chemically, these two forms are represented as NH4+ and NH3. NH4+ is called Ionized Ammonia because it has a positive electrical charge, and NH3 is called Unionized Ammonia since it has no charge. This is important to know, since NH3, unionized ammonia (abbreviated as UIA), is the form which is toxic to fish. Water temperature and pH will effect which form of ammonia is predominant at any given time in an aquatic system…..

…In healthy ponds and tanks, ammonia levels should always be ZERO. Presence of ammonia is an indication that something in the system is out of balance. Therefore, ANY ammonia in a pond or tank should alert the producer to start corrective measures. However, it is only the unionized ammonia (UIA) which is toxic to fish. This toxicity begins as low as 0.05 mg/l, so a positive TAN test needs to be followed by a test to find the actual concentration of UIA. To do this, the temperature and pH need to be measured. Once the pH and temperature are known, one can determine the fraction of UIA present from Table 1. Find the temperature on the top, and the pH on the left. The number taken from the table is multiplied by the TAN to give the UIA in mg/l (ppm). This calculation is summarized in Figure 2 and an example is given in Figure 3. Anytime that the UIA is higher than 0.05 mg/l the fish are being damaged. As the concentration rises above 0.05 mg/l it causes more and more damage and at 2.0 mg/l fish will die. End Quote.

Sorry for the large post but it cannot be explained any better than this and is crucial information. Now understanding this principle and following the charts below (or better yet entering your readings into the calculator given on http://cobweb.ecn.purdue.edu/~piwc/w3-research/free-ammonia/nh3.html) the level of Toxic unionized ammonia can be calculated.

Using a UIA reading of 0.05mg/l (ppm) as the borderline level perhaps Koi can handle a higher level but I’m not taking the risk (or if growing Silver Perch use 0.02ppm as the upper level as I have read in another tech note somewhere as there upper level of tolerance) one will soon establish ammonia reading that are extraordinary high can be tolerated or are not in the unionized form that are toxic to fish if lower water temperatures and lower pH’s are employed to our advantage.

For example after I added my Urea to my system it soon spiked to an ammonia reading of 25ppm. My water temperatures were around 15C and I had reduced my pH to 6.5 lets look at the calculations. 25ppm, 15C, 6.5pH = 0.0216ppm UIA A safe reading for my fish, simple. Now if everything else was to remain the same but we had a pH of 7.5 lets do the calculation again. 25ppm, 15C, 7.5pH = 0.2144 UIA Death would be imminent if just a shift of pH was to increase one point a massive 10 fold jump. Hence, pH is a vital tool that can be utilised if ammonia readings are at toxic levels. However, I further reduced my pH levels to 6.2 and I believe I experienced a bacteria crash of my Nitrosomonas as I recently discovered its pH tolerance is no less than 6.5 and at a pH of 6.2 its growth was inhibited allowing the ammonia produced from my fish to very quickly catch up to a reading of 50ppm which is considered toxic to my fish, I did a 90% water change to correct the toxicity and adjusted my pH to 7 allowing my bacteria to function once again its now back to a safe level. However, Fishfood system is operating very low pH’s and is still functioning, perhaps there may be some wild strains of bacteria that is still able to function at these levels. I inoculated my system with pure strains of bacteria so there may be a difference.

Obviously once ammonia is present in a system it is converted to nitrite. High Nitrate levels reduces a fishes ability to uptake oxygen from the water across its gills via its blood and intern suffocating the fish to death. The addition of salt to the water acts as a physical aid to block this nitrate toxicity across the gill plates. It is the chloride ion that does the blocking so one could use Calcium Chloride or Potassium Chloride to get the same effect over common salt Sodium Chloride, I have read somewhere that Potassium Chloride is 6 times more effective in acting as a block against nitrite poisoning. I was obtaining nitrite readings as high as 20ppm but with the addition of both table salt Sodium Chloride and Potassium Chloride commonly know as Muriate of Potash I have not experienced any ill effects nor more importantly any fish deaths.

So anyway I think I’m out of breath for now, I hope this has helped.

[Outbackozzie]

JD
I am new to this and still in the learning, investigation and planning stage.
Curious that you had no fish death, you're obviously doing something different.
What fish do you keep and have kept?
Can you elaborate on what you think you do different to other people that results in you not having had any fish death to date.


Not having fish deaths is about doing it properly. Everyone is rush rush rush, and expects to be able to stock 200 fish in a blue barrel = death.

Current proven fish in AP - Silver Perch, Trout, Barramundi, Catfish, Carp.

[djs-sa]

JD's lost no fish because his set up is stable and he grows koi/carp which grow very easy, so if ur interserted in the vegie side of things goldfish work very well and easy to keep.
I grow barra and had 1 spike in the system 2-3weeks in and had lost fish over a couple of days and since then only morts due to barra's like to sometimes eat thier mates. this is due to sizing/grading of the fish not underfeeding

[Hamish]

Not having fish deaths is about doing it properly. Everyone is rush rush rush, and expects to be able to stock 200 fish in a blue barrel = death.

Current proven fish in AP - Silver Perch, Trout, Barramundi, Catfish, Carp.

And Jade Perch :)

[karl]

Thanks JD
Very informative and lots of food for thought and more research to do, especially on the fish front.
Are Koi similar to goldfish in the size they will grow to being dependent on the tanks size they are in?

[Jonathan Dyer]

Hi Karl,

Given the opportunity Koi and Goldfish will grow quite large even in a confined tank, they just grow slower. Given perhaps 3 years and some of my Koi will be reaching 20” inches and some goldfish maybe 9” inches, they will continue to grow providing they have food but eventually they may only gain an inch every 18months when they get older, it really isn’t any different to most other fish. Having a handful of goldfish in a 4x1 aquarium tank they barely grow but, the second you put them in a 1000L tank they grow quite fast and put them in a large dam they grow very, very fast as long as there well fed of course.

However, here is the catch, over the past 200 years the common carp had freak babies with colour pattern on it the freaks were kept separate and a new genetic line was created KOI. Since then Koi breeding has been focused to display more colour variations and distinct patterns over growth rates, so therefore the Koi generically grows slower than its forefather the common carp.

Question: Is there “Grass Carp” in Australia? I would also like to add them on my ‘to do list’ if I could get hold of some stock.

[GaryD]

Hi OBO,



Current proven fish in AP - Silver Perch, Trout, Barramundi, Catfish, Carp.


Add Jade perch, Murray cod and Sleepy cod to the list, too.

In my view, Jade perch top the list because:

they'll live in water that will kill all of the others.....except the Carp.
they grow out to eating size in a single season.
they are a perfect beginner's fish.
they taste at least as good as any of the others.
they have the highest recorded Omega-3 levels of any fish species identified so far.Gary

[fishfood]

What temps will jades do

[GaryD]

Hi FF,

Jades need to be above 20 degrees C to feed properly. For each degree below that, they feed less and less. Much below 16 degrees C and you can expect losses......particularly among younger fish.

We didn't use heaters this year and our water temperatures dropped below 13 degrees C on several occasions. I suspect that they only reason that we didn't lose fish was because they were well advanced. The oldest of them are two years old. The younger ones are about 250mm long.

We keep Jade fingerlings in smaller tanks (250 litres) equipped with aquarium heaters.

In much the same way that you can grow trout out during the cold weather, I think you could probably do the same with Jades......so long as you got them started on heaters during the winter and finished them off by the end of summer.

Gary

[fishfood]

Thanks for that Gary i think i will stick with trout and silvers as a stand by also looking at readfin with the possability of breeding i think it can be done [ as you know theres a lot of things they said could not be done in ap it seems different] if i get them to breed i will have a few 1000 litre tanks for grading to stop canabilism[spelling]

[Jonathan Dyer]

Hi All,

Here is some pictures I took the other day once again the quality is poor but you get an idea.

[Jonathan Dyer]

You may notice that I have some pure white Koi in the mix (although its hard to tell due to the poor quality photo) I would be interested in trying to breed a pure white strain so no colors as an edible fish, they would be equal to most other breeds of edible fish that can be easily breed at home so no reliance on buying expensive fingerling; providing water temps were kept mid 20’s they would grow in 2 years from birth I would expect. This could be reduced by natural selection over time choosing the fastest growing ones as breeding stock although it would take 10years for any great turn around. Come to think about it I could through the ‘white strain’ into one of my irrigation dams to speed up the process of natural selection once I breed some white fingerlings.

I don’t know why carp are given such a bad name in Australia (Mainly those Easterners and Banana benders:p) they really are a fantastic fish if kept domestically and not let out into the waterways and river systems, its only when they are wild they cause many environmental problems that we are all aware of. But as far as an edible fish they are underrated if purged for a week they are great and in a re-circulation tank they are swimming in there purging tank; much similar to farmed rabbits over the wild the taste difference is huge. Did anyone catch The Iron Chef last week? The feature food item was Carp now the food cooked there would be heavenly, Australia + Carp = Underrated fish. I’m thinking of going to Perth when I can throw a line in some fresh water rivers and pools and trying my luck at some Koi, hoping for a 10 pounder.

[Murray]

You are correct JD. Carp are underrated as an table fish.
The environmental factors are the problem. They have almost wiped out native wild stocks here on the east coast.
Very illegal to keep. It is a pity because you need to hit them with a big stick to kill them. A very big stick.
Would be great for AP, like Tilapia. Pity about Tilapia as well.
Although , the genie is out of the bottle with them too. Evidently some rivers in NQ have Tilapia now, due to slack and irresponsible releases.

[Jason Palenske]

JD I have a question in regards to goldfish. I have been getting mine from the local pest store being sold as feeders, and so far we get a good amount of them that seem to have deformed bellies and and have balance issues and invariably don't survive. Is this a normal struggle for goldfish to make it past to reach maturity? Or is it maybe the conditions they are kept in from how they are kept in the pet store? Any help would be greatly appreciated, I don't want them to die if i can help it.

[GaryD]

Hi,

While I'll defer to JD when it comes to knowing about goldfish, I might make the general point that the quickest way to import a disease into your system is to buy fish and other organisms from pet and aquarium shops.

If you have to acquire fish that way, be sure to quarantine them carefully until you can be certain that they are not diseased in anyway.

Gary

[Jason Palenske]

Thanks Gary, the main problem around here is just about any fish you get are going to be from somewhere else. Now the local shop does a really good job of caring for the animals they have but the goldfish are ones they don't raise themselves. Even the sport fish in almost all the lakes and ponds have come out of the local hatchery or somewhere else. Overall you really have to scrounge or pay out the nose to get something good around here.

[bunya boy]

Jason,
The 'Comets" we have in our inadvertent system (see inadvertent aquaponics thread under general) grew from about 20mm long when we got them about 3 years ago to over 120mm now. We only lost 3 (from 9) and I'm sure that was to the Kookaburras that infest our block.
Sorry, Kookaburra lovers but they have really become brazen vandals because of people feeding them.:mad:

Cheers, Ian K

[Jason Palenske]

Hey JD here is a pic of the deceased, it passed away earlier this morning.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e284/Eco-Shed/100_6000.jpg

I'm pretty sure how its belly looks like the belly is sucked in and the tail bends upward is not normal but I have no idea what causes it.

[Jonathan Dyer]

G’Day Jason, Sorry I didn’t get back to you sooner been flat out.

Thanks for the photo it is very helpful, well still very hard to tell the cause but here is what I would do:

First off what you have experienced is not normal at all, there are some serious issues that need to be addressed if things are to get better so do a few things I recommend to see if things pick up.

1. To stops you dead in your tracks before you even start it could be “Genetics” some sort of heredity trait that is passed on to a percentage of the offspring. Intern, these deformities result in the death of the fish; there is no solution to fix this problem like ‘down syndrome’ in humans as unfortunate as it is there is no way of fixing it. As the fish you buy are sold as ‘feeders’ this gives me an indication that they are reject stock that has been graded from the good healthy looking fish so it maybe a lost cause to begin with. The only solution is to buy healthy looking stock; but don’t despair I cannot rule out other factors….

2. Second likely scenario is a disease outbreak some sort of disease or bacterium that is physically doing the damage. Try setting up a quarantine tank if you can a perfectly balanced environment is needed, a fully cycled system, lots of aeration, bio-filtration, mechanical filtration, chlorine free, pH 7.5 or thereabouts, hardness around 300ppm in fact I would defiantly recommend adding around 3g/L of Salt to the water as well…oh imperial conversion is about 1 teaspoon (medium heap) per 4 cups of water this will bring the hardness up; try Aquarium Salts designed for goldfish but if not table salt is ok. A good feed of live food will help as well frozen bloodworms is a good start.
As it is very difficult to segregate the problem (more than likely genetics) a selective disease treatment cannot be used with confidence so a non-selective medication is needed and possibly over several weeks to see if there is any improvements if not another medication would be worth giving a go. Medications such as Methylene Blue for a broad spectrum fungus control and Tetracycline Hydrochloride for broad spectrum bacteria control would be what I would start with. I don’t know if you can mix the two together but would be best anyway to start with one and then try the other after a week or so if no improvement is observed ask your aquarium dealer for more information, follow the instructions and see how things go.

Well I’m out of suggestions on this matter I hope this is of help.