CSA experience and advice

[Jeremy Trevatt]

Hi guys,
Gary mentioned to me in another post that he recommended I look at CSA. I have done a bit of digging on it, so I am now reasonably educated on what its all about.
I actually came across an operation here in Brisbane called http://www.foodconnect.com.au
. They seem to be following the CSA concept well.
Some rough numbers I did are:
Typical sale price is $40 a week per 'fruit and vegie pack' (small family)
$40 * 125 packs per month = $5000
~ Equates to 33 packs per week.
Of course the $5K does not include any of the costs. So assuming that your costs (not setup, just operational and inputs) are 1/3rd again you would need to sell roughly 175 packs per month (40 per week) to cover them.

My estimation then is that an aquaponics/organics farming operation of a reasonably small size would be to produce this, and would be able to get the numbers (40 families) without too much difficulty from immediate and extended family and friends, and friends of friends etc. I need to follow up on this assumption with some more quantative research, and if anyone has any information to share on this I would be interested. There isnt a lot of hard data around on the subject, although there are some breadcrumbs around concering density and yield of certain popular crops such as lettuce and tomatoes. It doesnt seem as if broader good quality research has been conducted.

From the new farmers point of view there is a lot of work to be done in researching, preparation and setup. There are also costs associated with all of this which wont be immediately recouped. The ability of the aquaponics/organic farmer (integrated farming) to largely eliminate ongoing input costs is a major advantage however.

In my own situation I have purchased 15 acres of land in a fairly fertile area with a good source of water. I am in the process of doing some planning based on research of traditional farming methods and then applying some aquaponics factors into the equation. In a typical commercial application you would use NFT of floating raft, I am going to go with NFT. I think in terms of footprint on the land and minimizing water volume NFT is a better choice where practical. Of course Tomatoes grow better in bags/pots etc... and potatoes.. well thats a different story all together.

So, a CSA focused aquaponic/organic integrated food production operation is the goal. A CSA farmer is commerical by virtue of the fact that he is selling product, therefore there are some other commercial realities that come into play as well, and one of these is marketing and customer relationship management. From what I have seen so far this aspect is extremely poorly done on either an industry or individual basis.

One of the complexities faced by the small CSA farmer is the variety of crops needed to produce a 'pack'. If you were to try to produce the whole range of grains, nuts, tree fruit, vine fruit, leafy vegies, fruiting vegies, root vegies, and herbs/spices then thats quite a big ask! Some CSA farmers even get into honey and jams! And of course there is stuff that we simply cant grow in our area due to climate.. coconuts & bananas for instance dont do well in the sub-tropics. So, carefully selecting your crop mix is important. One other aspect to this is that its hard to be an expert grower on such a wide variety of crops. Doesn't mean I am discouraged from trying, it just means I will prioritize accordingly.

If you are starting out fresh then getting a crop like lettuce going in a month or so isnt a problem... but getting nut trees, some vine and tree fruit can take years... so my thoughts are to try the dwarf varieties that get going faster, but plant the big ones straight away. Of course you also have to look strategically at replacing those trees as well... a lot to think about on a small operation.

Thoughts?

[Jonathan Dyer]

Hi Jeremy,

I am a farmer in the central wheatbelt of WA I have converted our farm over from traditional wheat to now grow horticulture crops (pumpkins, rockmelons, zucchini etc) so I know what is involved. I have a production horticulture degree from tafe as well as a aquaculture degree too (although my aquaculture degree is only a level 2).

15 acres is quite enough land to make a commercial venture quite successful providing good water sources. Something like rhubarb alone would be able to make a good live on that area with quite little capital out lay, the more crops you grow the harder it gets especially if you want something at market every week, it gets much more complicated with seasons, what takes you to grow something in the summer 12 weeks could take well over 20 in winter. And if you go for such an integrated system that’s where things get interesting. Not saying its impossible by no means just a precaution that can only be learnt given several years experience. Oh don’t forget to look into Shire regulations you could be stopped before you get started!

I wouldn’t recommend dwarf tree varieties I don’t know why a lot of people say that they grow faster and produce more but they don’t. Yes a well managed tree for its size can produce quite a bit of fruit and may crop one or so years earlier but the amount of crop in the first few years in nothing and a normal tree will over yield it in two or so years. The only advantage is higher tree densities can be achieved but is sill in comparison to a normal tree and densities. Think about if they where better in regards to yield then they would become common stock in a commercial planting but they are not.

For more research on plant production the best website is The Department of Agriculture & Food of Western Australia they are by far better than any other state, but also try Vic & Qld as second best, other than that hard core net searching gets good results as well.

[Jeremy Trevatt]

Thanks for those insights Jonathan, much appreciated. Although I love Rhubarb and Apple pie myself, I wouldnt have had rhubarb high on my list to grow... who buys it?

Jeremy

[GaryD]

Hi Jeremy,

For those members who may not be in touch with the acronym......CSA stands for Community Supported Agriculture. CSA is a direct relationship between a farmer and consumers (no middleman) in which a grop of consumers commit to the purchase of a pre-determined weekly parcel of food products. The benefits to the consumers are clean, fresh food at a good price. The farmer gets a fair market price and predictable weekly cashflow. He/she can also schedule crop plantings much more effectively.

CSA is a growing trend worldwide.....and is ideally suited to an integrated food production set up. While many CSA arrangements are based on fruit and vegetables, there's no reason why they shouldn't also contain any combination of organically grown meat, poultry, quail, eggs, rabbits, fish, farm cheeses, etc.



One of the complexities faced by the small CSA farmer is the variety of crops needed to produce a 'pack'. If you were to try to produce the whole range of grains, nuts, tree fruit, vine fruit, leafy vegies, fruiting vegies, root vegies, and herbs/spices then thats quite a big ask! Some CSA farmers even get into honey and jams! And of course there is stuff that we simply cant grow in our area due to climate.. coconuts & bananas for instance dont do well in the sub-tropics.


There's nothing that says you have to grow it all yourself. You can find other farmers who grow the things that you do not and barter with them so that you both have a larger range with which to satisfy your respective clients.

Jeremy.....glad to see you're making steady progress on your IBFP journey.

Gary

[Murray]

http://www.aquaponicshq.com/forums/images/misc/progress.gif
The Department of Agriculture & Food of Western Australia they are by far better than any other state, but also try Vic & Qld as second best, other than that hard core net searching gets good results as well. Them Westies again.....Just like thems Texans. Everthin is bigger in Texas. :)

[Jonathan Dyer]

Hi Guys,

Murray if you check out our Ag dep. web site you will see why it is better, they have a much broader range of crops and its requirements; I have had more help from there than anywhere else, Qld. Ag Dep. I would say is second best. But that’s how it goes in the Wild Wild West. :p

Believe it or not rhubarb is quite popular in the right market, perhaps not in farmers markets (I don’t know) but its like dragon fruit and custard apple something that doesn’t seem popular is a steady seller in the right market (I buy both dragon fruit and custard apple when I see it). Rhubarb would be worth considering if the right conditions can be achieved and further value adding in the CSA type of market by way of rhubarb jams, chutneys, rhubarb pie is possible; you never know it may lead to be a major cash cow. For instance I live in a small town of around 1000 people I sell some of my produce to the local IGA store and taking out the middle man that makes bank by doing sweet FA my rockmelons are picked at optimum ripeness selling around 170 fruit (8 cartons) every week (although most of these where my own trial tests) and the feedback is nothing but positive. Additionally, I would say I use around of 60% certified organic fertilisers in combination with inorganic to balance out the difference in plant nutritional requirements. Now hears the thing the produce sold at CSA markets could be said to be organically grown but who is going to know there is no such thing as a taste comparison between organic and inorganic. I have many people ask me in my town is my food organically grown because they think it tastes like nothing else they have ever tasted before I could tell them anything and they would believe it; the reason it tastes so good is a combination of many things good nutritional requirements, good varieties selected (this is very very important), being picked at absolute optimum ripeness; it is not fully organically grown so it cant be that. I am a big supporter of ‘Organic Certified’ produce if people clam to produce something organic it must be certified by an authorised recognising body such as BFA to be considered ‘Organic’ as anyone could lie to squeeze in a few dollars more.
Its like Aquaponics is inherently organic, but is it? Manufactured feed sourced from food that is not organically produced (which includes purchased fingerlings), in some cases water that is contaminated with inorganic compounds, the list could go a bit further. Even most of its production is free of chemicals and could be easily converted to be organic but it still brings the question could produce be said to be 100% organic if not truly produced organically? Organic production is possible but it must be true.


For those members who may not be in touch with the acronym......CSA stands for Community Supported Agriculture.Gary

Is that aimed at me seems I was the first to respond? :) They talk about fair trade coffee for the farmers in the third world but I don’t think they get a fraction of the $15.00 in a 500g pack! There is always a bigger picture.

[Murray]

All good points JD,
We all, just by being on this forum demonstrate that we are wishing to move closer to the ideal of Self Sustainability and Organic food production. The ideals are a long way off, but we must strive to go as far as we possibly can.

I don't really know if my tomatoes taste any better, but I really think that they do. The fact that I grow them myself actually adds physiological flavour.
What I do know is that the tomatoes I grow haven't been bathed in a plethora of chemicals and other unknown substances.

That's got to be good.

There are people who don't have the time or the ability to grow their own and want the same things as I do.....They will be the market place for my excess, carefully grown produce.
The fake farmers are soon caught out...Customers who want better are a discerning lot....they can't be fooled for long.

The plebs will never buy the good stuff. The will buy coloured, flavoured recycled cardboard to eat......look at the drive through section of a well known fast food place for proof of that.

[GaryD]

Hi JD,


Is that aimed at me seems I was the first to respond? :) They talk about fair trade coffee for the farmers in the third world but I don’t think they get a fraction of the $15.00 in a 500g pack! There is always a bigger picture.
No......it was in response to Jeremy's use of the acronym 'CSA'........which I sought to clarify for those forum members who might be wondering what 'CSA' meant.

Gary

[Jeremy Trevatt]

Hi Gary,

Do you have any specific information on how I might contact CSA organizations to get the ball rolling with supplying? Is it best to try to work through an established outfit (in which case do you have any recommendations as to who), or is it smarter just to go it alone? It seems that a lot of the aquaponics/hydroponics/organics enthusiasts do tend to go it alone, which may be the reason why things have been slow to take off. Interestingly I sent an email to the guys at foodconnect.com.au a few weeks ago and have heard nothing from them. This didn't surprise me with this type of business, but it is disappointing still.

Why does it seem so hard to get some basic help from these guys? After all, all that being sought is some advice, metrics and help in getting produce into the market through the CSA route. Are they naively trying to protect their own interests are or they just basically lousy business people?

Given your background perhaps you can shed some light on this.

Jeremy

[Jonathan Dyer]

Jeremy,

Why not put some adds in the local and state newspapers you never know you may get a response. What do you have to loose?

[Murray]

Jeremy, I wouldn't get too worried about it really, there a are lots of ways to sell your produce. I have a close friend who has a very nice piece of land beside the Albert River at the base of Tamborine Mt.
He grows all sorts of stuff organically. Not organically approved, but he uses manures and no sprays etc.
He sells al his produce at the Sunday Markets. He makes a good living and a great lifestyle.
He is not at all excited about Aquaponics as he and his wife are vegos and he grows plenty of veggies anyway.

I think one of the things to consider is where you are located.
It is fine to move out into the country, but if you have to rack up a heap of miles to get your produce to some population area for sale then it is a bit counter productive.

It is a natural reaction for people to protect their business from possible copy cats and or intruders. There is work to be done, and often you just don't have time to talk to someone who wants some hours of your time and is not likely to buy anything, or contribute in any way.

You will get much better results in the long run with floating raft DWC than NFT especially in an Aquaponics system.

[GaryD]

Hi Jeremy,

I took a look at the Foodconnect web site and it certainly appears to be a comprehensive operation.

If you want to know more about how they operate, I suggest you take them up on their invitation to drop into their Salisbury office for a 'cuppa' and ask them.

I suggest that you Google "community supported agriculture" brisbane (and elsewhere)......and trawl through the results for additional information.

Gary

[GaryD]

Hi,


You will get much better results in the long run with floating raft DWC than NFT especially in an Aquaponics system.


I imagine Tailormade Farms and Barrundi Blue (Australia's two largest aquaponics farms) would argue with this proposition.

Gary

[Hamish]

Hi,



I imagine Tailormade Farms and Barrundi Blue (Australia's two largest aquaponics farms) would argue with this proposition.

Gary
And I am having some pretty good results with my pipes growing strawberries and lettuce. I actually think the lettuce is doing better than in the clay ball grow beds - with no media cost.

[Murray]

You will get much better results in the long run with floating raft DWC than NFT especially in an Aquaponics system. I imagine Tailormade Farms and Barrundi Blue (Australia's two largest aquaponics farms) would argue with this proposition.
Both run water to waste, both view aquaponics as Aquaculture and they grow veggies in the water they intend to run to waste anyway.
I rely on the very extensive work done at UVI in aquaponics which shows that in a recirculating system DWC is, in the long term more stable and produces better results.
These are two different ways to approach the growing of fish and vegetables together. Depends entirely on your preferred method in he long run.

[Hamish]

I guess one thing to consider is that I could not use my NFT grow tubes by themselves. Without the grow beds acting as biofilters the NFT can not be supported.

[GaryD]

Grow beds are not the only way to achieve bio-filtration. If you're going to use another growing system (other than grow beds), trickle filters are just as effective, are cheaper to build, are a fraction of the weight and require less floor space.


Both run water to waste.....Barramundi Blue have just announced that they are going begin recirculating their water soon. Managed correctly, neither system should 'waste' much water. In any case, any water that comes out of either system would be able to be used in other ways.

UVI is, in the context of commercial operations, still a very small business. The capital expense of setting up a large-scale floating raft system would far exceed the cost of setting up any similar NFT system.

Gary

[djs-sa]

my system is going to be all NFT various sizes tho, but i'm running and bio sand and uv filter all mounted above the sump (on the sump) with two 1/4 hp pumps running the whole system

[Jeremy Trevatt]

This is an interesting and vibrant discussion :)

I discussed the NFT vs Floating Raft and Grow Beds in my original posts in my 'ramble' thread. Bottom line is that the costs and maintenance issues for those systems rise faster than the NFT systems as the operation scales up in size. Lugging those big tanks around, with all that media in them.. and having to maintain them is not my idea of fun on a large scale. The footprint is just to big.

My intention is to use NFT in a non-recirculating system using smart-valves (as used in Auto-Pot systems). Also, adding in the trickle filters. For vertical climbers like tomato's I will go with the standard method of feeds into each pot.
Why?
- non-recirculating is the only safe way of introducing additional 'ingredients' into the system without killing the fish. Probably after years of running and working out the correct balance and effective natural ways to ensure the plants and fish are safe, it would be plausible to convert to a recirculating system (as long as there was a way of reverting it)... but thats not a risk I am willing to take at the moment.
- smart-valves mean that pumps into the crop lines don't need to be in continual operation. Essentially its a flood and 'use' system. This is a plus when it comes to wanting to reduce power consumption and also give some protection against power outages.
- as far as the CSA marketing goes, I probably will talk to the food connect guys sometime closer to implementation. However, I am more inclined now to do one of two things initially (form a private Brisbane CSA group based on my own contacts) and introduce the produce into my new local market where the farm is. Although the population is small I still believe its a good choice for many as the distance to travel for them to a major town (Beudesert) is an hour away... and I am a believer in the concept of re-localization (as opposed to Globalization), so this fits in with that idea... I think it will take a while to grab hold, but once the fish start hitting maturity it also opens up another unique possibility for the area.

Jeremy

[Murray]

Lugging those big tanks around, with all that media in them.. and having to maintain them is not my idea of fun on a large scale. The footprint is just to big.I am wondering why one would be lugging the DWC troughs around, and the media they have in them is water.

DWC has many advantages over NFT
One is the much larger volume of water in play at any given time which leads to a much more stable environment for the fish. Also water temp is much more stable.
Hydroponic farms running NFT have a lot of difficulty with water temp in the hotter months...a problem not present in DWC systems.

[Hamish]

As I am looking to move to a small country town I am also looking at the possibility of supplying my produce - both fish and veges to locals via some sort of market.

However - I beleive there are some issues with selling fish to people - health department issues with preparing the fish or something. Can anyone fill me in on this?

[Jeremy Trevatt]

When I was referring to media I was referring to media in grow beds not DWC, however water is a media and it is heavy, and it is in short-supply... so I guess my point is still valid. It terms of 'footprint', I map this to the total volume of material (containers and media) used in a system. This is a factor for both initial setup and ongoing maintenance. The implications of using these big, heavy things on a large scale concerns me. Fine for small operations, but on a large operation I think channels are more commercially viable. I am not down on the idea of DWC or grow-beds at all.. I just think its a case of matching the right solution to the situation.

Your point regarding the temperature is very valid. I almost brought it up in my previous post. I believe oxygenation may also be an issue. I read some interesting material recently where in Malaysia they were playing around with cooling the root zone. The effects on the quality of the product was significant. I have been considering the best way to control water temperature throughout the system and perhaps in the same solution find a way of introducing oxygenation... and also how to accomplish this with minimal power usage.

I was recently shown a website where they are playing around with laying pipes at a certain depth underground where the temperature is constant throughout the year. Water pumped through these pipes were then used in the heating system of the house (under-floor heating). I dont know how practical this is when you look at the volume underground required to regulate an above ground structure but I guess its a interesting idea. My idea is somewhat less grand... a pump system that pumps air set at a temperature through the channels... thus releasing oxygenated,warm air to the roots. I would love to hear other peoples ideas on this.

Jeremy

[Jeremy Trevatt]

As I am looking to move to a small country town I am also looking at the possibility of supplying my produce - both fish and veges to locals via some sort of market.

However - I beleive there are some issues with selling fish to people - health department issues with preparing the fish or something. Can anyone fill me in on this?

The basic advice I got on this was that as long as its fresh/live and sold at the farm-gate (no transport) then its actually not that hard... its when you get into transport, packaging and storing that you run into the red-tape... understandably so I guess.

Your intentions re the small country town and what you want to do there sound similiar to my own.

Jeremy

[Jonathan Dyer]

- non-recirculating is the only safe way of introducing additional 'ingredients' into the system without killing the fish.

Hi Jeremy how are things going?

I would just like to say that there is another way of applying nutrients to plants I don’t know if it was mentioned or not but is widely used in all horticultural and agricultural crops world wide, Foliar Spray. Even in NFT channels one could operate a spraying boom over the top of the channels where your fertiliser mix is applied with a boomspray by either tractor, Ute, quad bike or even a permanent sliding boom.

It would work just as effective as any other method and would cost a lot less than installing a computerised nutrient feeding system; also there would be no need in having the system run-to-waste. The only downside of such system is the higher manual work needed, but really it doesn’t take all that long to mix up a bit of fertiliser and spray it on the crop.

Anyways

[Jeremy Trevatt]

Hi Jonathan,
Great to hear from you again. And thanks for that info, I will look into it further. I can see that if I need to provide a supplemental feed to the plants that might be the way to go.

My focus in the last couple of months has been primarily on gathering costs and identifying a channel to supply to.

The main areas of cost I have been focusing on has been on the Boxsell NFT and Pot systems, and the Greenhouses. I have been sizing the operation based on what I *believe* is a size suitable to provide an income of around $120K p/a.
Based on some anecdotal evidence I have calculated that an 800sqm greenhouse operation is around the ball-park for what I need. I decided to ask a well known greenhouse company for a quote. The quote for 2x400sqm greenhouses came in at around $70K. I was not expecting the quote to be cheap, but I was still a little suprised. It was a commercial quality greenhouse with all the bells and whistles in climate control etc.

The good side-effect of getting that quote was that it made me do some more digging around for alternatives. I came across the concept of 'passive solar greenhouses', and have been looking at the various ways these can be designed. The advantage of these houses is that they can significantly reduce the amount of power used to heat houses at night and in winter.
I also met with the company that are constructing my steel kit house on the land (www.allgal.com.au), and asked them if they could quote me on a steel frame if I supplied the design. Then from that frame I can put on all the greenhouse plastic, mesh and shade etc. So, I am trying to put together a design for them to quote on at the moment. The major design consideration I am trying to crack is dealing with the multiple layers of screen material.

I figured that rather than go for 2x400 houses I would break it down into 5x160m. This way I can grow incrementally and also be able to treat each crop type more uniquely by dividing them up across more houses. I thought I would start with 2x160 houses first.

I haven't costed out the rest of the design yet (ie. the whole fish side of things). I do suspect though that these costs will be a much smaller component that the greenhouses!

Jeremy