Back Up System Options

[GaryD]

Hi,

My recent fish kill has caused me to reflect on Back Up System options.

Might as well make it a learning opportunity for our members......and an opportunity to reflect on the need to take my own advice for me.

Gary

[Crusty]

If you want to build your own relay switch it is really easy and cheap. Aquasonic sell them cheap as well. I could sell them myself, but don't use them because they are not a reliable backup option. They are cheap though.

Here is a photo of one I built a few months back to show someone else how to build them.

http://www.crayfishmates.com/crayfish_forum/uploads/1289961140/gallery_1_27_31726.jpg

[jet]

Im in the middle of building one, has 2 delay relays, and is designed to run existing pumps from battery and inverter, with a decent N70 battery should run for a number of hours.
Delays are so inverter doesnt try to start under load, and doesnt flick between supply sources if mains jumps on and off quickly.
NOW, I have to add extra outlets and timer relay etc to integrate Crusty's auto dual pump switching setup.

[Crusty]

lol and you still have not installed my backup (not the one above).:p

[GaryD]

Hi,

My concern with the backup power relay switch approach is that it doesn't cover all of the contingencies. It only provides protection against power failure. It won't protect you against equipment failure, broken pipework or if someone switches your system off (as Paul's earlier example demonstrated).

The fact is that if the water stops moving, it's only going to be a matter of time before you're in strife.

Any practical back up system will need to take this into account.

Gary

[Cecil]

Hi,

My concern with the backup power relay switch approach is that it doesn't cover all of the contingencies. It only provides protection against power failure. It won't protect you against equipment failure, broken pipework or if someone switches your system off (as Paul's earlier example demonstrated).

The fact is that if the water stops moving, it's only going to be a matter of time before you're in strife.

Any practical back up system will need to take this into account.

Gary

Very true Gary, but just like life we can only control certain things and this is one of the things we can control. At least with a back up electrical automatic switch over, if we are not there, we have some time.

I'm mulling over back up electrical right now.

I have several options:

A gas powered generator which is about $400.00 U.S. dollars where I can just plug my two pumps and agitators in. But this will only work if I'm there. If the power goes out and I'm not home well you know the rest...

A UPS or similar device of some kind with inverter and charger and battery where I can at least plug in my two pumps that run the RBC's to keep the half that would stay out of the water from going dry and the bacteria drying. I like the fact that this automatically kicks in when you're not there, or gives you time to set something more long lasting going. I understand I can add deep cycle batteries in series for extended power on some of these. One aquarium supply store on line had one that they assured me would run my two pumps that power my RBC's for up to 11 hours with just one battery. I see they don't offer it anymore for some reason. I'm going to call and see why. A poster (an electrician) on a saltwater aquarium site referred to a aquarium supplier that had one available that was "trouble." Something about not being even a moderated sine wave as advertises, and not all devices used on aquariums would work on it. He did not say which company it was but it was an APC 550 VA/330 W. I'm going to call the company that had one advertised and see if it is available and what model it was to make sure it's not the same one.

Most of the UPS' I see online are for computers and only provide reserve power in minutes to give you enough time to set up a generator or something. Perhaps that is because of the small size of batteries that come with them, and if you use larger deep cycle you can get them to last longer?

As some of you may know in a past post, I set up a UPS I had laying around with a deep cycle, and it not only didn't run long (although it switched over fine), but it started to overheat! The box started to melt! Too small perhaps?

I'm leaning toward getting the right size APC or UPS that I can hook up batteries in series -- for at least automatic transfer from AC to DC and a generator -- (which wouldn't be a bad investment for the house in case we get an ice storm or thunderstorm that knocks power out for an extended period of time).

My problem is I am not an electrician and even with photos I'm lost. And no offense to Crusty but considering your power in the land down under is set up differently, I'm not even sure the terminology of the labeled parts is the same.

[RS_]

Hi Cecil,

If you hook 2 12v batterys up in series, you will have 24V, and will require a 24V inverter. if you hook the 2 batterys in parallel, then they are still at 12V and will run a 12V inverter.

If you want the Backup power to run a LONG TIME, and the batterys to last in service a long time, than use 2 6V Golf Cart batterys in series for 12V

[Cecil]

Hi Cecil,

If you hook 2 12v batterys up in series, you will have 24V, and will require a 24V inverter. if you hook the 2 batterys in parallel, then they are still at 12V and will run a 12V inverter.

I meant to say parallel! :o Shows how electrically challenged I am! :o


If you want the Backup power to run a LONG TIME, and the batterys to last in service a long time, than use 2 6V Golf Cart batterys in series for 12V

O.K. makes sense!

[Cecil]

I just ordered a back up system for my two tanks that will keep my RBC's turning for hours on just one battery and will automatically kick in if the power goes out. Also has a charger build in. I'm sure I could have built one cheaper if I had some electrical training like Crusty, RS and others here, but alas that is not the case. My electrician (my dad) is basking in the sun of Florida and is of no use here in the land of snow and ice. LOL

Unfortunately I don't have the specs right now as it's special order and not on the website anymore. I do have the specs around here somewhere from when it was on the website if I can find it. If so I'll scan and post, and of course take pics and post them once I get the unit if anyone is interested.

Don't believe I need to run the Agitators right now with the low loads I have in the tanks, and the RBC's actually do some aerating frpom the water landing on the baffles to turn it and of course the turning itself. I may have to purchase some battery powered agitators in the future vs. putting a total of ~450 watts on this system for a much shorter run time. Without the agitators watts total is only 105 for the two pumps.

Or maybe I can put them all on the system with golf cart batteries? I do want to be careful and not damage this thing as it wasn't cheap at $369.75 which includes a kit of cables etc.

Normally if we get power outages it's only for a few hours. I'll have a gas powered generator if it lasts longer.

[RS_]

Cecil,
what is the wattage of the UPS you bought, that will tell you what you can run on it, The GC batts will run larger wattage UPS's for several hours, or smaller wattages for very long run times, it just depends on what UPS you got.......

and you want the UPS wattage rating to be about 10% grater than the total wattage of everything that you want to run on it. you don't want to run one at it's full wattage rating for very long, with out very good venting of the inclosure or some kind of cooling, heatsinking, etc.....

[Cecil]

Here's what I got to run the two pumps at a total of 105 watts. Please feel free to constructively criticize but be aware it's already ordered. I know it's pricey but the yellow perch in just one tank are worth at least 6 grand (U.S. dollars) if they get to 13 inches or more so...

Page 1

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/CecilBaird1/batterybackup.jpg

Page 2

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/CecilBaird1/batterybackupjpg2.gif

[Cecil]

BTW I'm seriously considering mounting a trickle filter above the RBC's with a funnel at the bottom to direct flow to the baffles on the RBC. That way if I have a power outage I will have additional aeration, degassing of c02, and biofiltration while turning my RBC's at the same time. Possibly no need to worry about cranking up the agitators during a power outage at least for a short period of time. I have plenty of plastic media available and can make a packed column out of 5 gallon buckets or even smaller buckets available at a local building supply store.

Hey if they produce enough aeration I may even turn off the electricity guzzling agitators -- at least while my fish density is not too high.

[Cecil]

Cecil,
with out very good venting of the inclosure or some kind of cooling, heatsinking, etc.....

This unit has a fan and it's quite cool in the basement. However I won't be running it near it's max wattage from what I can tell.

[RS_]

No, it does not look like you are even close to running it at it's max wattage..... that looks like a nice UPS unit, with plenty of cooling. The GC batts would run that full 750W's for a very LONG time....... Sam's have the Interstate brand, and the last time i looked, they were at a farely good price for the GC 6V 220Ah model. For my various Non AP projects, i would not settle for any thing less than the 220Ah Golf Cart Batt's, and in some cases i have used bigger Ah Batt's than that.....

I have 8 large Flower pots with 12gal of expanded shell in each, over the fish tank, as trickle down biofilters, that the sump pump, pumps up to. Will be adding 8 more directly behind them in the near future......

the out flow from just one Flower pot, would turn a RBC filter like yours very nicely

What is the biofilter media on your RBC, Poly Twine....?

I have also rigged up some trickle down biofilters out of Topsy Turvies that i had on hand, by putting a 3" layer of expanded shell in the bottom, then 10" of Black lava rock, then about 3" of river gravel on top of that, to plant into........ I have these hanging over the Fry barrels, and the water that is normaly pumped to the Fry barrels, diverted into the top of the Topsy Turvies

[Cecil]

What is the biofilter media on your RBC, Poly Twine....?



One of the RBC's is alternating fiberglass roofing and polystyrene plastic here:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/CecilBaird1/IMG_9176.jpg

The other is alternating PVC roofing and the polystyrene plastic here (was on sale and cheaper than the fiberglass roofing):

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/CecilBaird1/IMG_9177.jpg

Notice how dirty the first one is vs. the second one. It was initially in the tank with the fish vs. the second one that started out in a separate tank.

[Cecil]

No, it does not look like you are even close to running it at it's max wattage..... that looks like a nice UPS unit, with plenty of cooling. The GC batts would run that full 750W's for a very LONG time....... Sam's have the Interstate brand, and the last time i looked, they were at a farely good price for the GC 6V 220Ah model. For my various Non AP projects, i would not settle for any thing less than the 220Ah Golf Cart Batt's, and in some cases i have used bigger Ah Batt's than that.....



So you would not foresee any problems hooking up two 6 volt golf cart batteries in a series for the UPS unit? What about one 12 volt Golf Cart battery?

[RS_]

ah, i get it now, it looked like some kind of rope wound on it......

[RS_]

No i dont, 2 6V batts in series, make 12V, that is what ya want....

They don't make GC Batt's in 12V...... they do make some 8V models, but that's not what ya want.......

the 12V Deep Cycle Marine Batterys, are built more like a Auto Battery with thin lead plates, and just do not have the output capacity or the number of recharging cycles that that the GC batts have, with much thicker lead plates, etc......

very much worth the extra $$$ for the GC's, if ya get any where close to using the full 750W that the UPS can delver

Get the yellow spray for the Battery terminals from a auto parts store, to keep them from corroding

[Cecil]

Sounds good. I thought I saw some 12 volt GC batteries for sale on the Internet. I think it was four 12 volt batteries to make a 48 volt system?

[Cecil]

RS_

What about charging requirements of two 6 volt batteries with this unit?

[RS_]

the 20A 3 stage charger will be fine for the GC's, but may take a little longer to recharge, than the smaller Deep Cycle Marine batts.......

[jet]

Yeah charging is where these UPS units often underspec, this one looks pretty good though.

[Cecil]

A friend pointed out a larger one at about the same price on Amazon.com. I wished I would have known about it sooner. :(

http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-APS1250-Inverter-Automatic/dp/B0007NOUBA/ref=pd_cp_e_1

Here's the same unit I bought but almost $100.00 cheaper (with cables) on Amazon. Ending up buying it for a total of two units. Now I can run my agitator and pump on each unit. Agitator is 172 watts and pump is 35 watts.

http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-APS750-Inverter-Automatic/dp/B0007PGAG6/ref=pd_cp_e_1