Fish food

[Jim Bedford]

Hi All,
Joined today. Very interesting. Wondering about the laws with regard to feeding fish for human consumption at home? Has anyone used baby mice for Sthn species? Also, does anyone have an evap/transpiration water loss figure for a fully operational system? Obviously this would have to be re /m veg. Finally, anyone working with hardwater?
PS I'm sure I've broken a hundred rules by lodging multiple questions. My only defense is that I'm thrilled to have found the forum and am a computer novice.
Cheers, Jim

[Murray]

Hi Jim,
Welcome
There are no laws that I know of re what you feed your fish, except the ones you set yourself. Most folk are very fussy about what the fish get to eat because the fish are themselves to be eaten by the feeder.
Re Transpiration, So many factors come into play, how hot is the day, lat and long, relative humidity, greenhouse or no greenhouse, plant type, do you flood the beds above the surface of the gravel and so on.
In my 4 bed system with it's 2300 ltr fish tank I top up 30 to 70 ltrs a day in high summer and 20 to 30 in winter. Water use is the absolute minimum possible in any gardening system.
In a well managed system, the only water loss is via transpiration and water that is used to produce the vegetable. If you pick 2 kg of tomatoes I would guess there is at least one kg of water (one ltr) in the tomatoes picked.
Lettuce are mostly water.

[Jim Bedford]

Thanks Murray,
My transpiration rates will be similar to, or fractionally higher than up your way. I'm an hour west of our member at Shepparton, and 45 mins south of where another member mentioned managing a Yabbie operation at Moama (Echuca). I've had a 6.1m x 6.2m workshop built. Concrete floor, 15amp power outlets, hi-bay lighting, windows, 3m walls and roller doors and phone/computer cabling.
Hadn't built it specifically for aquaponics/integrated food production, but am thinking that I could dedicate half the shed to fish/yabbie culture and have the grow beds immediately outside, which is where I have my thirteen fruit trees, chooks, tank water and mains (bore) water.
Interesting to read about duckweed. Is this azolla? I'm thinking of using azolla, water chestnuts and phragmites as part of a bio filter between the grow beds and the aqua tanks. Any thoughts?
Also, has anyone used a passive pool heater down this way?
Cheers Jim
PS Man, those quail look tasty!

[fishfood]

Hi jim welcome to ap madness the only advice will give is if possable look at a few opperating systems and ask a lot of questians[ its fum doing it again but expencive on used parts][ note shift pistd is the way to go] have a look at my thread [look mum its all done with one pump]:D

[Murray]

Jim, Your setup will be really fantastic. To have those facilities available to you will be wonderful. Fish tanks in the shed and the grow beds outside under a grow tunnel or similar is ideal.

[GaryD]

Hi Jim,


Interesting to read about duckweed. Is this azolla?

No duckweed is not Azolla. Both are aquatic plants but duckweed is quite different to Azolla in terms of its physical appearance and the way that it functions.

There is already a thread on duckweed and googling 'duckweed' will produce plenty of useful reading/

GaryD

[Jim Bedford]

Thanks Murray, Gary and Fishfood. Sorry Fishfood, but I'm not sure what[note shift pistd is the way to go] means. I'm techno lingo challenged. If there are forum protocols I'm ignoring, please let me know.
If our Shepparton member is on-line, maybe they'd be good enough to fill me in on where they looked for their system and how they're getting on with the Euroa (or other) hatchery...?
Do fingerlings weaned onto pellets readily go to live food as they grow?
Cheers Jim

[fishfood]

Savage goldfish [shepparton] hasent got a setup running yet [well dident 6 weeks ago] if thats who you are talking about
as for the euroa hatchery they only sell eels commercial
for shft pst see my thread fishfood in established systems
i allways recomend start cycling with goldfish [normaly the cheapest option ][i still have 3 large ones ]

[Jim Bedford]

Thanks Fishfood,
I've done as you recommend and started out with goldies. I bought a dozen 20mm comets from the pet shop in Bendigo and they've breed to now number about 40 of varying sizes and colours. Breeding well and all look perfect except for the raised 'moles' on a couple of the larger ones. I've been reading about ich on-line and believe it is something which our aquaponics species can contract. I'll be keen to see how the recommended 14 days in 3kg/1000L goes in clearing this up. Is it a parasite which humans can suffer from?
Interestingly though, mine don't exhibit any of the other symptoms of ich, as I've said, they look great. I'm wondering whether they have fibrosis. They're in a poly-lined yard pond which holds about 2m3 of water and has reeds, lilies, papyrus, etc. I never feed the fish, they look perfect and the water is crystal clear, although I'll have to start testing. Also, in my earlier remark I said my workshop was 6.1m x 6.2m. That's the area I can dedicate to the fish/yabby culture. The workshop is actually 6.1m x 12.2m. I'm thinking of starting with three small tanks, 1200mm long. Down the track they'll be used for staged introduction of fingerlings, but in the immediate term I thought I'd try yabbies and duckweed. I'll match the grow bed system to this as well as I'm able and increase it in time as, when the yabbies are harvested, I introduce fingerlings to the small tanks and prepare a couple of the 2400mm tanks.
Thanks for your advice. Great to have access to you folk who know your stuff.
Cheers Jim

[fishfood]

Jim without photos i would say the raised moles are not ich if there are only on 1or2 i would cull them for salting use a quarantine tank salt may effect your native plants i only have veggies in my system and they dont mind salt

[GaryD]

Hi Jim,

ICH will appear like coarse grains of salt on the fish and the fish will 'flash'.....rubbing against anything in the tank in an attempt to dislodge the ICH which is a parasite. From what you've described, you don't appear to have ICH.

Some people favour the use of goldfish to cycle tanks but I believe that the best way to introduce a disease into your system is to buy anything from pet shops or to bring it in from the wild. Google 'fishless cycling' for alternatives to the use of goldfish. Some people use urea to get their tanks going, too.

Gary

[Hamish]

Urea works really well - I wish I had not added the gold fish to my system (for fear of introducing disease) should have just pushed on with the Urea.

One thing I would like to try if I cycle another system is Grocote. Available in pottles of controlled release pellets at bunnings for about 3 dollars. They seem to have a more complete profile than just straight Urea - might help get plants established as well as cycling the bacteria.

Contents:
Nitrogen (N) as Nitrate 5.5%
Nitrogen (N) as Ammonia 3.2%
Nitrogen (N) as Urea 8.3%
Total Nitrogen (N) 17.0%
Phosphorus (P) as water soluble 2.7%
Phosphorus (P) as citrate soluble 0.3%
Total Phosphorus (P) 3.0%
Potassium (K) 14.0%
Magnesium (Mg) as water soluble 1.8%
Sulphur (S) 1.0%
Iron (Fe) 0.05%
Manganese (Mn) 0.015%
Molybdenum (Mo) 0.025%
Zinc (Zn) 0.015%
Boron (B) 0.01%

[Jim Bedford]

Phew,
I've been reading so much here and on Gary's site I'm getting a clearer picture of how to go about things. I took your advice and have done some research on fishless cycling and it makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the tip about Grocote Hamish. I might use it when I'm ready to set up. I can't find aqua tank suppliers down here though, so if anyone knows a good supplier......Are all food grade plastics ok for use as aquaponics tanks? I read on your site from twelve months ago, Gary that you prefer to use 1000L tanks as they're easier to monitor than the larger ones. Is this something you still recommend? I'd like to duplicate the system you show on your posting on your site, July 24th, 2007, if I can find an equipment supplier. Also, found remarkable the BSF article. I'll set some baits and trap some local flies when the weather warms up. Hopefully there's a similar fly here. I can't wait to get a basic system set up and cycling for Spring.
Cheers, Jim

[Murray]

Would not use Grocote or anything like it....Artificial chemical based fertilisers will kill your fish. Danger....Danger....Danger....
How do I know this you might ask ? I have killed fish every which way by experimenting, and this is a sure fire way of killing a tank of fish.
I am the chief of fish kills :(
Keep right away from that kind of thinking.

Sorry to be at odds with all the excitement of "Fishless cycling" but I really feel it is flirting with danger. If you feel it is a good option then just stick with plain Urea. No additives. There is no way of knowing what else might be in a product like Grokote

Why do this fishless cycling anyway ? It is easy and simple to achieve a balanced system just by setting up your system, plant your veggie plants, add the fish, test daily, partial water changes as necessary and 4 to 6 weeks later your system will be well established. System cycled...... Fish happy.....Plants jumping out of their skin......:)

Adding chemicals to an Aquaponics system is anathema

Chemical based fertilisers and insect sprays are the very thing many people are trying to get away from. That is one of the main attractions of Aquaponics, no need to use that kind of stuff. Adding chemicals of any description to your fish tank is flirting with disaster.

There are plenty of ways to kill your fish without going down that road.

[fishfood]

Would not use Grocote or anything like it....Artificial chemical based fertilisers will kill your fish. Danger....Danger....Danger....
How do I know this you might ask ? I have killed fish every which way by experimenting, and this is a sure fire way of killing a tank of fish.
I am the chief of fish kills :(
Keep right away from that kind of thinking.

Sorry to be at odds with all the excitement of "Fishless cycling" but I really feel it is flirting with danger. If you feel it is a good option then just stick with plain Urea. No additives. There is no way of knowing what else might be in a product like Grokote

Why do this fishless cycling anyway ? It is easy and simple to achieve a balanced system just by setting up your system, plant your veggie plants, add the fish, test daily, partial water changes as necessary and 4 to 6 weeks later your system will be well established. System cycled...... Fish happy.....Plants jumping out of their skin......:)

Adding chemicals to an Aquaponics system is anathema

Chemical based fertilisers and insect sprays are the very thing many people are trying to get away from. That is one of the main attractions of Aquaponics, no need to use that kind of stuff. Adding chemicals of any description to your fish tank is flirting with disaster.

There are plenty of ways to kill your fish without going down that road.I second that bit i still go for starting with goldfish and 3 ppt salt to start with [i have seen a few systems start and theres never been a problem]

[GaryD]

Hi Jim,

Murray and I find that we disagree about a range of topics to do with Aquaponics and fishless cycling is one of them. One thing that we can agree about, however, is that you should be very careful about what you put in a fish tank.

While plain urea has proven itself as a safe vehicle for fishless cycling, there are other ammonia sources that can be used if you are concerned about urea.

As Murray says, a fish tank can be cycled in 4 to 6 weeks (in summer) through the method that he proposes. In colder weather it can take much longer. I can get a tank to cycle in 14 days but the main reason that I prefer fishless cycling is that it is far more conclusive than the more protracted method.

Food grade plastics are good for use as aquaponics tanks or growing systems.

I still favour 800 - 1200 litre systems. I currently have six of them. If you post the URL for the information to which you refer (24th July 2007), I'll be better able to guide you.

Black Soldier Flies can be found in most parts of Australia. While native to the USA, they were introduced during World War 2 and they are well-established.

GaryD

[fishfood]

Phew,
I've been reading so much here and on Gary's site I'm getting a clearer picture of how to go about things. I took your advice and have done some research on fishless cycling and it makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the tip about Grocote Hamish. I might use it when I'm ready to set up. I can't find aqua tank suppliers down here though, so if anyone knows a good supplier......Are all food grade plastics ok for use as aquaponics tanks? I read on your site from twelve months ago, Gary that you prefer to use 1000L tanks as they're easier to monitor than the larger ones. Is this something you still recommend? I'd like to duplicate the system you show on your posting on your site, July 24th, 2007, if I can find an equipment supplier. Also, found remarkable the BSF article. I'll set some baits and trap some local flies when the weather warms up. Hopefully there's a similar fly here. I can't wait to get a basic system set up and cycling for Spring.
Cheers, Jim
Hi jim for your fish tanks i find ibc/s as pood cheap tank setup you can plumb them to a common manifold [wow 10 tanks with 10 different kind or sizes of fish ] ballarat fish farm use 4 in a row to breed thousands of trout
i currently use 3 [big silvers trout and small silvers ]if you have dollars by all means go for commercial tanks

[Jim Bedford]

Thanks folks,
Marvellous to access your thoughts generated from hard experience.
Will now disregard Grocote and return to the closed (as much as posible)integrated natural resource system premise I've been considering for thirty years. Lesson learnt. Your system which I referred to, Glen is at http://urbanaquaponics.com.au I clicked on Our Blogs at the top of the page, then, on the left on the new page I clicked Aquaponics and scrolled down to your story. Learning to use computers effectively is more daunting for me than the IBFP.
I've looked at numerous stock trough suppliers here; Clark Tanks, WaterStore, etc. I wondered about using a 820L 2400x1000x550 stock drinking trough (curved bottom) as a growbed or even a fingerling tank. It has a division across its length at the middle in which a float valve is positioned. If used as a growbed, the edges along its length will have a depth of scoria which will be less than 300mm and so the nitrobactor won't be active. It has a drain/ball valve at one end. The other tank I looked at is 2485 diam x 500 with a 65mm drain point on the bottom of the side wall. Too shallow for fish I imagine. I noticed you make a round tank, Murray, with a centre drain point. Is it possible to have the discharge water from this tank self level into the growbeds, shut off, drain to a sump before being pumped back to the fish tank? 15mins inflow/flood bed, 45mins drain?
The BSF/worm/sewage/veg waste scientific paper resulting from Caboulture Shire/Uni Qld's research is great but Hermetia illucens won't breed during winter down here, so I've emailed Zoology Dept at La Trobe Uni here in Bendigo in the hope that they can recommend something which feeds as well on green waste and migrates from the bedding material before pupating.
Glenwaters Native Fish, Glenburn has been recommended to me as a fingerling supplier. If anyine in Vic has had dealings with them I'd be keen to hear of their experience. I'll get some quotes for product/tanks, inc transport, from you in the not too distant future, Murray.
Cheers, Jim

[fishfood]

Hi i have had 3 lots of silvers from glenwaters no problems also i know Notable [euroa] tt [geelong] both reported success also there are others [on byap forum]

[fishfood]

Thanks folks,
Marvellous to access your thoughts generated from hard experience.
Will now disregard Grocote and return to the closed (as much as posible)integrated natural resource system premise I've been considering for thirty years. Lesson learnt. Your system which I referred to, Glen is at http://urbanaquaponics.com.au I clicked on Our Blogs at the top of the page, then, on the left on the new page I clicked Aquaponics and scrolled down to your story. Learning to use computers effectively is more daunting for me than the IBFP.
I've looked at numerous stock trough suppliers here; Clark Tanks, WaterStore, etc. I wondered about using a 820L 2400x1000x550 stock drinking trough (curved bottom) as a growbed or even a fingerling tank. It has a division across its length at the middle in which a float valve is positioned. If used as a growbed, the edges along its length will have a depth of scoria which will be less than 300mm and so the nitrobactor won't be active. It has a drain/ball valve at one end. The other tank I looked at is 2485 diam x 500 with a 65mm drain point on the bottom of the side wall. Too shallow for fish I imagine. I noticed you make a round tank, Murray, with a centre drain point. Is it possible to have the discharge water from this tank self level into the growbeds, shut off, drain to a sump before being pumped back to the fish tank? 15mins inflow/flood bed, 45mins drain?
The BSF/worm/sewage/veg waste scientific paper resulting from Caboulture Shire/Uni Qld's research is great but Hermetia illucens won't breed during winter down here, so I've emailed Zoology Dept at La Trobe Uni here in Bendigo in the hope that they can recommend something which feeds as well on green waste and migrates from the bedding material before pupating.
Glenwaters Native Fish, Glenburn has been recommended to me as a fingerling supplier. If anyine in Vic has had dealings with them I'd be keen to hear of their experience. I'll get some quotes for product/tanks, inc transport, from you in the not too distant future, Murray.
Cheers, Jim
On your fish tank 500 is not to shallow [i would not say the opptermin] but i have 50 150mm trout in 350 mm water 2.5m by 1m doing real well : i would love round tanks [with a center drain ] but alas old age penshioners dont have the money for luxeries

[Jim Bedford]

Thanks Fishfood. Age shall not weary us ........
Jim

[Hamish]

I would be interested to hear Gary's take on using Grocote instead of Urea to fishless cycle. The Urea worked well for me - and I am only guessing but wouldnt Grocote be made in a similar way to Urea? Just seems that Grocote has a more balanced range of minerals etc.

Murray - what is the difference between grocote and the mineral fertiliser you supply with the delux balcony kit? Would this not be produced a similar way? By the way - how often and how much of this fertiliser do you use? Just sprinkle it on the grow bed?

However - on saying this - now that i see how small the Jade perch fingerlings are I cant imagine they would produce much Ammonia - even the 100 or so I have in my tank. They are so small - they all huddle together in a school about the size of a tenis ball! In a 1250L tank that is tiny! So cant imagine a system spiking and killing fish with such a light load. Would be a different story if you were throwing 50 fully grown perch in a new system though! Then you would have problems as the system bacteria would not have grown with the fish.

So my point (in hind sight) is similar to Murray - just put the fingerlings in and test the water every day, especialy if you are able to seed the bacteria in the tank with a couple of buckets of dirty fish water from an established system.

[Murray]

Hi Hamish, It's exciting when those fish arrive.
Your system will be very stable for those little fish, because you have so much water to fish ratio.
But those little fellows produce much more ammonia than you would think, so keep testing to watch the pattern of ammonia production. If your plants get a little short on nutrient because of the small output by the very young fish then do a foliant spray with Seasol to keep the plants going. Your fish will grow very well, and soon it won't be a problem.

[GaryD]

Hi Jim,


I've been reading so much here and on Gary's site I'm getting a clearer picture of how to go about things. I took your advice........

I read on your site from twelve months ago, Gary that you prefer to use 1000L tanks as they're easier to monitor than the larger ones. Is this something you still recommend? I'd like to duplicate the system you show on your posting on your site, July 24th, 2007, if I can find an equipment supplier.

Also, found remarkable the BSF article. I'll set some baits and trap some local flies when the weather warms up. Hopefully there's a similar fly here. I can't wait to get a basic system set up and cycling for Spring.
Cheers, Jim


Jim, the system to which you refer (see photo) comprises fibreglass tanks and grow beds. You could also use plastic tanks (see photo) and grow beds.

In any case, I still prefer to work with small square tanks in the 800 to 1200 range for a range of reasons.

GaryD