Gav's system

[gavinl]

Hi all

This is my second system and I am in the process of cycling. Unfortunately, I got a litttle keen with the urea and added 3 handfulls instead of one. The result is that my Ammonia is 8+ ppm after two weeks. Initially, both my Amm and my Nitrites went past 5ppm, however the Amm is still 8+ppm and the Nitrites are down to about 0.25 ppm - there are some low level nitrates coming through as well.

I would like to get the Amm down so am thinking of replacing 1/3 of my water each day until they are managable. I am worried however that I might lose some of the bacteria. Additionally, I am worried that the Nitrites are so low but the Amm is so high.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks heaps

gav

PS: ph around 8 - 8.2 level

[nick]

i have read somewhere that the high ammonia levels can actually kill the bacteria that produce the nitrites and nitrates so the water change is definitely a good idea, also you need to lower the pH as at that level with that ammonia you will kill any fish that you put in there.

if you have no fish some acid from the pool shop every other day till it comes down, it is relatively cheap and does the job, mostly it is HCl hydrochloric acid.
you will need to leave it for the night and retest in the morning to check your new level.

Add fish once your ammonia is down to zero and you pH is below or at seven. Also don't change out all of your water just do a half and then check again and see what it does, if it was me I would try to get it to 2ppm and then let the cycling take care of the rest to make sure everything was working.

Nick

[gavinl]

Thanks Nick


I will take your suggestion mate and empty half my water - will try to get the Amm managable again. Lowering the Ph of my bore wateer is proving difficult as my water is very hard. I've found that vinegar lowers it for about 1 hr and lemons last about 5 hrs. I'll probably go and get some sulphuric acid and see if that can do the trick. Is there any side effects of using hydrochloric or phosphoric acid instead to lower?

Thanks mate

gav

[nick]

No should not be any harm, it will just split into the H+ and Cl- ions and the Cl- will be left behind the same as when we salt to treat ich in the fish.

Have heard of people with bore water having troble with getting pH down, but if you can get it down to seven or lower you will have much less trouble when introducing fish. If you use the acid to get it down the cycling process will take care of it in the long run. THe cycling process is acidifying so most peolpe are the opposite and are adding carbonate in one form or another to buffer the system up as the pH is too low.

Any way good luck

[GaryD]

Hi Gav,

While I agree with most everything Nick has said, you would achieve a similar thing over time if you just leave things as they are.

As the ammonia level drops, the nitrite levels will rise....eventually both will drop to zero.

By changing out large volumes of water, you are stalling the natural acidifying effect of nitrification.

Once your ammonia and nitrite levels get down to zero, the high pH will be much less of an issue.....and it will drop eventually.

One question.....if this is your second system, why are you attempting to cycle it this way anyway. I'd have just introduced water from your existing system at the rate of a few litres per day and it would have kicked on naturally.

Given the choice between sulphuric acid and hydrochloric acid, I'd opt for the latter. When diluting acid, always add the acid to water....never the other way round. I'm sorry if I'm telling you how to suck eggs on this count but (for those who are not aware) adding water to acid creates a violent reaction.

GaryD

[gavinl]

Thanks Gary and Nick:)

I suppose I'm in a bit of a hurry as the Amm levels have been 8+ppm for over 10 days now and the Jade Perch fingerlings are selling quick.:) In all honesty, I got a bit impatient initially with the urea showing up as Amm and now am paying the price...I think I ended up putting in three times what I should have...ahh patience, one day I hope to get a bit more of it and save myself a lot of time and energy in the process.:)

I ended up getting rid of half my water and the Amm level was 5 yesterday and is at 4ppm today. The Nitrite is sitting around the 5 ppm level (a big jump from .5ppm when the Amm was 8+ppm) and the nitrates are around 10 ppm. At this stage I will wait until they both Amm and Nitrites zero out and then get my fingerlings.

This is my second system Gary, but my first one was in Macau about 6 mths ago. I have been delayed a few times by tank deliveries (TeamPoly take a long time) and other projetcs that needed to get done first. I am hoping that as my fingerlings grow, I will use my second 900L tank and cycle as you have suggested.

Thanks heaps again for the advice

gav

[gavinl]

Hi again

New developments with the water after three days...the Amm has gone from 5ppm (3 days ago after getting rid of 1/2 the water for the second time) to 4ppm (2 days ago) to 0ppm (today). It was 8ppm+ for about 10 days before replacing the water. The Nitrite (3 days ago) went from 0.5ppm to 5ppm (2 days ago) to 1ppm today. Lastly, the Nitrates have gone from 10ppm (3 days ago) to the same 10ppm, (2 days ago) to 40ppm today.

I wondering if the system can be considered as cycled when the Nitrite zeros out or if I have put everything out of whack by my severe water replacement. Would it be worth putting a small amount of urea in again to see if the ammonia and nitrites quickly get converted to nitrates....or can I finally order my fingerlings.:)

All advice greatly appreciated.

gav

[Murray]

You will no doubt get different opinions on the best way to do this Gav, but I will tell you what works for me and those who put my kits in.
I would go ahead and plant my seedlings immediately.
Keep them humming along with the use of Seasol. A weak mixture into the fish tank water and spray the plants every 3 or 4 days with a half strength mix. You could use a little urea in the water if you wish.
With plants in there, the effect will be to help stabilise the system.

After a couple of weeks get the fish in there,
Test the water to see how it is all going.
The plants will start to use any nitrates produced immediately, and provide a stable environment for the fish when they are finally added.
With already established plants the fish will be much safer when introduced.

As the bacteria colony populates and processes more and more ammonia the plants are there to soak up the nitrates.

Once there are fish in the system I have NEVER witnessed a zero ammonia reading in any of my systems.
As Gary says, there can be a zero reading when there are no fish in the system, but logically, once the fish are in, if there is no ammonia reading, the fish would be starving to death or dead already.

[gavinl]

Thanks heaps Murray. I'll put in my seedlings - my tomatoes have been waiting for a replant. :)

gav

PS: just a quick note about my severe water replacement...not meaning your advice Nick...as usual I did a bit more than was recommended. :)

[GaryD]

Hi Gavin,

Based on what you've described, it sounds very much like your system has cycled. This is why I like fishless cycling......it's quick and decisive. Your system has cycled in about three weeks rather then the 6 - 12 weeks that risking live fish usually takes.

I suggest that you continue to add small amounts of urea to keep ammonia production going and get your plants in. Cease adding urea a few days prior to the arrival of your fingerlings.

GaryD

[gavinl]

I am currently waiting to see if Ausyfish have any Jades left and have also been trying to lower my ph with hydrochloric acid. I am starting to make progress, but as I undersand it...I must have had to use a lot to combat the buffer. My PH seems to have settled at about 8. I have hard water and would prefer to keep my buffer to reduce ph fluctuations. I did read something from the DPI which might make my life easier:

"Jade perch are able to tolerate a pH of between 6 and 9, with the desired range between 6.5 and 8.5." (http://www2.dpi.qld.gov.au/fishweb/14076.html)

Just wondering if it would be okay to grow my Jades (hopefully) in water of ph 8.

Thanks

gav

[GaryD]

Hi Gavin,

You can keep your Jades in water of that pH (as evidenced by the information from DPI) but your problem will be to ensure that your ammonia levels remain very low. Ammonia is ten times more toxic to fish at pH 8 than at pH 7....at the same level.

Hopefully, the naturally acidifying effect of nitrification will kick in before your fish become big enough to generate much ammonia.

Fortunately, you live in a climate where nitrification should be optimal for any given quantity of food.


GaryD

[gavinl]

Thanks Gary..will keep lowering the ph slowly then mate with Hydrchloric acid.

Just wondering about nitric acid. I know that large scale hydroponics farmers use it to lower ph and was wondering if the by-product is nitrates. If so, would this be a good alternative to lower ph. I read somewhere that it works well with hard water. I am worried that if I use a lot of hydrochloric acid that my water might have too many by-products in it that could be unhealthy to fish and plants - I am using a fair bit.

Also, wondering if it will do any harm to put a bit more cycling bacteria into my system. I have a bit left over (bought in a bottle from an aquarium) and it will only be wasted otherwise.

Thanks mate

gav:)

[gavinl]

Hi all :)

I thought it was time to give a progress report, as it has been a fair while since postings.

The biggest decision I had to make, was to move away from an aquaponic system to two hydroponic systems. In all honesty it was more of an accident than a plan, as I had a long delay in getting my fish and had already planted the seedlings. Four weeks of Seasol just wasn't doing much for them, so I decided to add hydro nutrients, in order to save them. I must admit that I was fairly aggravated by the delay, as I'd spent a fair bit of time and effort getting the system fully cycled. No worries now though, as I am happy with my present setup.

I still use an aquaponic flood and drain setup: Murray's fibreglass tanks for growbeds; Gary's plumbing system and overall design; hydroton clay balls (Nerang Hydrocentre) as the grow medium; Rio Hyperflow pumps (Aquarium Supermarket) for energy efficiency; and, timers bought from a Hong Kong ebay seller. :) My other system is basically an NFT Home Table from Lyn and Des at Boxsell Hydroponics, however, I substituted their Aqua1 pump for a smaller more efficient Rio Hyperflow. After many discussions and questions, I decided that for my windy and rainy area (at least in the Wet Season), a greenhouse was the best way to protect my plants from the elements. A kit was purchased at a reasonable price from Monbulk Rural Enterprises and was erected by my wife and myself over a three week period. I ended up buying two TeamPoly 900L corrugated watertanks for a reasonable price - one used with my flood and drain system and the other as a reserve. I specifically bought these tanks as they come with a removable lid.

As I live in a solar house, I needed a system that was energy efficient. With a lot of help from Gary, the system uses one submersible pump with a minimum head to flood two growbeds and use gravity to drain - the tank has been half buried to ensure this. My current energy use is less than 140W for the flood and drain system - using twenty (11 minute flood and 49min drain) cycles per day. The NFT pump runs continuously and uses less than 150W per day. Basically the total energy consumed on both systems in one day is similar to that used by a normal household toaster (1200W) for 15 minutes.

I am growing 8 tomato plants in one grow bed and 8 Lebonese cucumber plants in the other. They are going fine and the cucs are just getting to eating size. The NFT system is amazingly quick for growing lettuce and soft herbs. With 72 plants in a full system, we eat salads every night and always have enough coriander, basil, parsley and mint for whatever recipe takes our fancy. I purchased nutrients from a commercial grower that I trust. Allowing for the changing of 350L of water for the flood and drain every 3 weeks and 100L for the NFT every two weeks, I have enough nutrients to last a year for around $40 + postage. I use bore water (sourced from a fissure that empties into the sea) and fertilise my trees with the 'old' hydro water. I am amazed at how inexpensive the system is, after the initial outlay.

I still need to practise growing my seedlings, but have nearly finished an automatic mister setup that will hopefully prove more successful than my past experiences - I always forget to water them or water too much. :) At the moment, I'm buying 8 seedlings from Bunnings for about $2.40. I feel the price is fair, but would like to grow my own plants from the heritage seeds I've purchased (from Green Harvest)....maybe soon. Below are some photos of the setup, including a raised garden for root vegies.

A big thanks to all those (and there were many) who helped by offering advice, suggestions and answers to my many questions. I have really appreciated the help and am extremely pleased with both the process and the final delicious product.

[Hamish]

What a great looking system! Very nice.

I realise it is too late now - but SEQ Fish have Jades available - as well as many other species. And they ship them all over Australia too. Im really happy with mine - not one loss yet so very healthy fish.

Anyway - looks like a great system - congratulations.

By the way - where is Green Hill?

Cheers,
Hamish

[gavinl]

Thanks Hamish...just a beginner, but really enjoy it.

I live about 1 hr south of Mackay and about 5 mins from the coast on 5 acres - I love it up here.

[Hamish]

Very nice - what is land worth up your way?

[GaryD]

Hi Gav,

Your system is looking good.....and it's clearly working well. Congratulations mate!

Gary

[gavinl]

Thanks Gary and thanks for all your help. :)

Hamish, land up here is about $185000 up to about $250000 for five acres. Smaller house blocks very close to the beach are about the same or higher. It has gone done a bit recently, but the general sentiment is that the drop is temporary due to the large amount of activity in this area. With all the mines in close proximity, the cost of everything else is basically comparable to Brissy. This is one reason for growing my own vegies. :) If you want to check out the area, just go on to www.realestate.com or www.domain.com and put in "ilbilbie".

Hope this helps :)

[Hamish]

Thanks Gav.