Multi-faceted ramble

[Jeremy Trevatt]

Hi,
I am Jeremy, a new member as of today. As an intro...I have a few years experience in doing backyard hydroponics. I have built a few systems of my own including NFT horizontals and gravity fed verticals (for strawberries/herbs). For the last year I have been experimenting with some success with aeroponics.

I have spent a few hours trawling the discussion threads on this site and see that a number of topics have been discussed that interlace what I am considering doing (ie. I have done my homework and hope I am not asking dumb questions).

I now want to move onto aquaponics, however I want to use NFT (using ell-gro pipes). I understand that the bedding trays have advantages in that they have a built in bio-filter and so on, but this method does not seem to be viable on a larger commercial scale which is what I want to experiment on.

I am still tossing up between circulating or non-recirculating. Both have pros/cons it seems. I have also checked out the Autopot system and although I love the idea I think that it isnt really commercially viable because of the high cost per plant - there are no economies of scale. I like the smart-valve technology and am wondering whether it can be fitted into an NFT system... perhaps one smart-valve per set of NFT channels. This is obviously ideal for a non-recirculating system. I like the idea of non-recirculating because I can ensure that nothing nasty gets back into the fish tank, and I can ensure a customized and sufficient nutrient for each channel set through an auto-doser. I guess if I were to phrase the system I hav in mind it would be "NFT Flood and Consume"... so its like the Autopot system but on a much more commercially viable model... and integrating the aquaculture.

I want a particularly hardy fish (probably Jade Perch). As I live in Brisbane temperature isnt too much of a problem although I want to hook up some insulation and a solar heating coil to minimize heating costs through the winter months. I am totally new to the fish side of things, so I need to do my homework on it. If you have any suggestions that would be great. I plan to give Ausyfish a call as well.

One thing I need to understand more of is how a seperate bio-filter works in in other NFT systems. I have seem some discussions on this by Dave and Laurie and I wonder if you might indulge me with some more specific details as to the design of your systems? I dont care whether they are recirculating or not, I just want to undertstand some more designs.

Like many of us in this game I am an experimentalist... however I am experimenting now for commercial/charitable causes.

Thanks,

Jeremy

[GaryD]

G'day Jeremy,

Welcome aboard.


For the last year I have been experimenting with some success with aeroponics.While your background in hydroponics will stand you in good stead, aeroponics will, due to bio-film, prove a challenge.

.
.....and hope I am not asking dumb questions).The only dumb question is the one that goes unasked.


I now want to move onto aquaponics, however I want to use NFT (using ell-gro pipes). I understand that the bedding trays have advantages in that they have a built in bio-filter and so on, but this method does not seem to be viable on a larger commercial scale which is what I want to experiment on.I use ell-gro NFT (on a very small scale) very successfully. Grow beds are good but, as you've observed they are not usually used on a large commercial scale.


I am still tossing up between circulating or non-recirculating. Both have pros/cons it seems. I agree. There's also the option of having a system which recirculates the water.....but independent of the tank.


I like the smart-valve technology and am wondering whether it can be fitted into an NFT system... perhaps one smart-valve per set of NFT channels.NFT relies on keeping the water moving. Still water in an NFT systems would most likely suffer from fungal problems. Of course, you can use the smart valve to feed several small pots in a large shallow tray. This would be much more like the Autopot system but at a much lower price.


I want a particularly hardy fish (probably Jade Perch). I like Jade Perch, too.....and they are certainly hardy.


One thing I need to understand more of is how a seperate bio-filter works in in other NFT systems.I use separate bio-filters on two out of my three systems. In fact, I advocate the use of bio-filters on all aquaponics systems.....largely for the reason that you can separate the growing system from the fish tank. Why?....to enable me to treat the fish with salt in the event of a disease without harming the plants.....or to treat a problem in the plants without harming the fish.


Like many of us in this game I am an experimentalist... Me too!

GaryD

[Murray]

Hi Jeremy T,
I have some El Gro same as Gary. I used it beginning of Spring with moderate success. I am going to set it up again soon for winter lettuce supply. Works best using fish water that has passed through a bio filter first. Removes the solids. Need continuous flow. That's where I went wrong, I had it hooked into the pump directly from the fish tank, so water flow was only on for about 5 minutes every 45 minutes and there were solids in the water.
Easy to make your own bio filter.
Gary has made a couple of very good ones out of those recycled plastic barrels.
I have an excellent off the shelf one that is just brilliant at cleaning up the water in the fish tank if things get a bit murky for whatever reason.

[Jeremy Trevatt]

Thanks for those replies!
My NFT/Aquaponics experiment is going to be seperate fromt he aeroponics. I will keep the aeroponics going for some time even though my thoughts are towards the aquaponics... got to have something producing while I am tinkering with new ideas!
So, if I can distill my thoughts down a bit further, what I am after is a non-recirculating NFT


I agree. There's also the option of having a system which recirculates the water.....but independent of the tank.


I use separate bio-filters on two out of my three systems. In fact, I
advocate the use of bio-filters on all aquaponics systems.....largely for the reason that you can separate the growing system from the fish tank. Why?....to enable me to treat the fish with salt in the event of a disease without harming the plants.....or to treat a problem in the plants without harming the fish.

ok! this sounds like something I need to find out about. I obviously want to recirculate because I cannot bring myself to waste water. However I do want a level of control over the different environments. Could you go into a bit more detail on the designs for those systems you mentioned?

Thanks,

Jeremy

[GaryD]

Hi Jeremy,


ok! this sounds like something I need to find out about. I obviously want to recirculate because I cannot bring myself to waste water. However I do want a level of control over the different environments. Could you go into a bit more detail on the designs for those systems you mentioned?If you were to use smart valves and large trays, you could avoid recirculating or wasting water......since water used by this system is limited to that taken up by the plants.

If you want to keep the water moving but to be able to keep the fish tank and the growing system separate.....use a nutrient reservoir and recirculate the water from the reservoir to the growing system and allow it to drain back into the reservoir......like you would with any hydro system. Use water from the fish tank to keep this reservoir topped up. Rainwater or dechlorinated mains water is then used to top up the fish tank. With this arrangement, you can add supplementary nutrients to your reservoir if there is not enough.....or you can treat your plants with pesticides if you need. Remember, even organic pesticides will kill fish.

Similarly, if your fish become ill, you can treat them (often by dosing with salt) without impacting your plants.

Regardless of what arrangement you use, you will need a bio-filter. In the case of a conventional grow bed system, the grow bed doubles as the bio-filter. In most other aquaculture/aquaponic situations, some other bio-filter will be needed.

Bio-filters are of various types including:
Trickling....like those currently in use on my systems.
Bead filters
Fluidised Bed Sand Filters
Submerged....these work like bead filters but use a manufactured plastic media like bio-balls, Kaldnes K1 or K3.....or similar
......these all facilitate the conversion of ammonia to nitrites (both of which are toxic to fish and then to nitrates (which are not generally toxic but should be maintained with reasonable limits.

Aquatic Plant filters.....which rely on plants (including duckweed) to remove nutrients directly from water.
Anoxic filters.....which convert nitrates to harmless nitrogen which is gassed off.......and there are others.....like rotating biological contactors, foam fractionators and activated sludge.......but these are the most common.

Earlier I referred to most.....because, contrary to what I said earlier, there is one kind of system that doesn't require a bio-filter.

If you balance your daily water need against the fish biomass in your system, you may find that you are using water from your fish tank.....for your plants......at a rate that is sufficient to ensure that ammonia never builds up to toxic levels. If, for example, you have 1000 plants (I seem to recall that you said you were thinking of going commercial at some time) you will use 1000 - 2000 litres per day (depending on the age and type of plants and the time of year). You could probably keep 60kg of fish in a system of this capacity if you made sure that you had sufficient aeration.

GaryD

[Jeremy Trevatt]

Thanks Gary!
Heres what Im thinking...
A combination NFT and Tray system. Sounds crazy I know, but it just might work!
Essentially I am thinking of a 4 stage partially recirculating system.
1) Fish. Nuff said. I just dont want to kill them... well before their time anyway.
2) Filters. Im ignorant on this but plan to become dangerously knowledgable.
3) NFT.
4. Trays.

The trickiness comes into the stage 3 and 4. NFT is designed to recirculate, however it can only recirculate for so long, you need to ditch the toxins that build up.. especially if your adding pesticides etc... which we all hate to do but at a commercial level there really is no choice sometimes. In hydroponics where you use 'store-bought' nutrient you have to refresh the system every 2 weeks. A rather depressing and guilt-laden task even if your dumping it onto your garden beds. Seeing as we cant refresh it by recycyling it back to the fish tanks we need an alternative. Fortunately, aquaponics doesnt have the same issue, however I am sure there still is some sort of 'refreshing' requirement. Of course new 'fresh' solution is added from the fish tanks continually, but this alone doesnt not eliminate other toxins that might have been introduced.

Stage 4 is the alternative. The plan would be to continually siphon off water from the NFT system at a rate of say 5% per day. The siphoned liquid would be transferred into the Tray system (maybe via an intermediatry resovoir). The Tray system is equipped with smart-valves which ensures that the plants only get what they need. It also ensures that toxins are being removed from the system.

The trickiness comes into the right balance of volume. Volume of solution going into the system from the source tanks (and the volume of fish tanks required to support it), and the volume of NFT vs volume of Trays needed to support the final consumption of nutrient/water.

As you mentioned, I will need a bio-filter(s). I really dont know what the relative merits are of the ones you mentioned, especially in the context of my proposed system design, so any suggestions on that would be great. I assume you use duckweed as a method of diluting nutrient solution before passing it onto your system.. sort of like a natural nutrient-throttle.

On a different note, yesterday I replanted the aeroponics system (60 pots). Going for lettuce, silverbeet, celery, cucumber, tomato, capsicum and brocoli. I didnt have much luck with brocoli last year, not sure whether its just a hydroponics thing or whether its our climate. Having 3 spray pumps running all the time sort of bugs me now, so I want to migrate to a more effecient method before next summer... perhaps will convert the aeroponics tubs to a deep bed system for rooting vegetables.. should be able to plug that into the aquaponics system as well... maybe using smart-valves :)

Hooray, it just started raining!

Jeremy

[Murray]

Fortunately, aquaponics doesnt have the same issue, however I am sure there still is some sort of 'refreshing' requirement. Of course new 'fresh' solution is added from the fish tanks continually, but this alone doesnt not eliminate other toxins that might have been introduced.
The refreshing equipment is the gravel grow beds.
With normal good practice fish husbandry there are no introduced toxins.

The simplicity of Aquaponics often escapes those that come from a hydroponics background. Many of the management practices needed in hydroponics become redundant in aquaponics.
It is the common experience that no disease appears in aquaponic fish, and toxins can only arrive by poor management practices.
The gravel grow beds are the filters, and they work amazingly well.
There are many variations to the standard gravel grow bed, but the underlying principals are the same.
The fish help the plants and the plants help the fish.

If one wishes to apply insecticides or similar to the plants then there would be a need to modify the standard closed loop gravel grow bed model, to an open loop model to facilitate the use of such compounds. Similarly, if one wished to add plant fertilisers an open loop system would be required to protect the health of the fish..

[GaryD]

Hi Jeremy,

What you've described is very achievable.

I have an NFT system and a square foot garden which feeds from, and drains back into, the same drain tank. I have a tiny submersible pond pump which i use to water both systems.

The water for this arrangement comes from my 1000 litre flood and drain system. I don't change the water in the drain tank because, between the NFT system and the square foot garden, it all gets used up.

The nutrients for the NFT system come from the organic fertilisers that are embedded in the square foot garden mix at the time that it is set up. Remember, the NFT system is used to grow lettuce so the nutrient demands are not that great.

Now, according to the "experts" this arrangement should be fraught with problems. You are not supposed to recirculate water through a soil-based system.....but I do. You are supposed to use hydro nutrients in an NFT system.....but I generally don't. A soil-based system and an NFT system should never be used together.....but they are.....and they are both firing.

My square foot garden outperformed all of my other growing systems during this summer......and, since the bug numbers started to diminish about a month ago. my NFT unit has performed well, too.

On the matter of which bio-filter to use......mine are simple trickling bio-filters. They consist of a drum filled with oyster shells (or other media).

The water is pumped into the top of the drum. It percolates down through the media and runs out of a drain at the bottom of the drum.

These units are simple and inexpensive to make and, once they have become populated with beneficial bacteria, they work very well.


I assume you use duckweed as a method of diluting nutrient solution before passing it onto your system.. sort of like a natural nutrient-throttle.

I grow duckweed for two reasons......nutrient removal and fish food.

GaryD

[Jeremy Trevatt]

Thanks Murray... as much as I appreciate the simplistic aspects of a closed loop gravel bed model as used in typical backyard scenarios it is not commercially viable on a large scale, which is why I am trying solve the issues in more creative ways... basically as per my discussion so far.

Thanks for the insights Gary, it is nice to know I am not way of track! I would love to come and visit your installation when you have some time.

I am now at the stage where I have pegged out 48sqm of yard that I am going to construct a greenhouse on over the next couple of weeks. I estimate that I will be able to produce ~500 pots in the NFT system and a still have enough space allocated for a decent size grow bed. Clearly I cannot consume that much product myself, so the friends, family and neighbours will reap the benefits of my endevours. However, the scale is important to me so that I can more adequately come up with some quantification for larger scale estimates (the logic being that the larger scale you begin with the more accurate your projections become).

I currently have a fish tank on order which is ~2 cubic metres in volume. I am wondering if this is enough or whether I need another one. It is easier to calculate the ratios using grow bed mediums but I havent seen a model based on NFT... any ideas? Also with the fish tank I am thinking that I might want to insulate it... box around it and fill the cavity with insulation. Would have to be removable for summer I guess. Also, was thinking about running a solar heating loop from the tank to the roof to help keep the temp higher. Is this overkill?

Fantastic idea re the oyster shells. Cheap is good at this stage. Would I need a particulate filter as well.. such as swirl? Or is that not necessary you think?

Jeremy

[Murray]

Hi JT,


hanks Murray... as much as I appreciate the simplistic aspects of a closed loop gravel bed model as used in typical backyard scenarios it is not commercially viable on a large scale, which is why I am trying solve the issues in more creative ways... basically as per my discussion so far.You are so right about Gravel grow beds and commercial systems...... Depending on crop etc. Tomatoes would do well in long narrow gravel grow beds. In fact it would be a good way to remove the solids instead of the swirl filters etc. Then send the clean water on to NFT for lettuce etc, then back to the fish tank/s.

Floating Raft is a very efficient way to do commercial....depending on the crop intended. Lettuce Basil and the like.
We have just supplied a farm to Mildura (three months ago) comprising of 4 x 2300 ltr parabolic tanks, 1 x swirl filter, 1 x particulate filter, 1 x isolation tank and bead filter, 1 x 1000 ltr sump, 6 x 5 mtr grow troughs and all the associated pumps, etc.
Grow troughs are 5 mtrs L x 1200mm W x 400mm D. The farm has just ordered another 4 x grow troughs. The farm has already pre sold their production for the next 6 months (veggies) and forward sold their Silver Perch. See farm website. (http://redheeler.aquaponics-shop.com/)
See the very extensive work done by the University of Virgin (http://rps.uvi.edu/AES/Aquaculture/aquaponics.html) Islands on Floating Raft Technology. A very well established and successful method.

[GaryD]

Hi Jeremy,


I currently have a fish tank on order which is ~2 cubic metres in volume. I am wondering if this is enough or whether I need another one. It is easier to calculate the ratios using grow bed mediums but I havent seen a model based on NFT... any ideas? The component ratio guideline is loose at the best of times and is utterly useless in a fish tank/NFT context. If you're going to grow plants commercially, you'll need your system to be a lot more predictable than the average aquaponics unit. This means that you should be prepared to supplement plant nutrients if your fish are not producing enough. How are you planning to deal with insect pests or fungal diseases if they arise?


Also with the fish tank I am thinking that I might want to insulate it... box around it and fill the cavity with insulation. Would have to be removable for summer I guess. Why? In Brisbane, you'll probably get away with not insulating your tank (depending on your choice of fish species). You'll go a long way to keeping your tank temperature under control if you just cover the tank during the night. If you did insulate, there'd be no reason to remove it in Summer.


Also, was thinking about running a solar heating loop from the tank to the roof to help keep the temp higher. Is this overkill?Nope!.....but it's probably looking at other alternatives including a simple trickle solar collector.


Fantastic idea re the oyster shells. Cheap is good at this stage. Would I need a particulate filter as well.. such as swirl? Or is that not necessary you think?A swirl filter would be useful but, as Murray suggests, you could run your fish water through a gravel grow bed (a combination of a trickling and plant-based bio-filter) to remove most of the solids.

A simple trickling bio-filter is easier and quicker to put together in the event that you are likely to need to separate your growing systems from your fish tank (which I'd recommend).

Of course, if you're planning to go commercial, my candid advice is that you get a simple business plan together......before you commit your money.


GaryD

[Jeremy Trevatt]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the great advice.

I am putting together a system design based on my growing understanding. The system design and ensuing practical experience in setting it up and operating it is intended to provide quantitative and qualitative information based on which I can produce a business plan. I expect this experimental stage to last 1 year.

The business intention is not purely commercial, as there are some charitable objectives in it. The two main charitable objectives are (1) to supply produce to families in financial stress on a local basis and (2) to set up sustainable farming practices in communities where defficiencies in nutrition is a major problem. As an example of this we support (and my brother manages) a childrens home with 50 kids in Bali. They dont have a problem getting some vegetables, but they do have protein defficiences. So we are looking at ways they can produce their own protein on a cashflow-neutral basis. Other charitable organizations around the world are pretty good at digging wells etc, but they are not so good on the sustainable farming side. I have a relative who manages that side of things with World Vision, so we are looking at how to get systems into places like Africa. Once a village has a well it opens up all sorts of opportunities.

In the 'experimental' stage of producing 500 plants we should be able to produce enough for 6 Australian families (bigger bellies than Africans). We are doing a mix of vegetables that we have found to be succesful in hydroponics, the back-bone of which are they leafy ones. So, we are really testing the practicalities of system design, costs, operational maintenance and production volume etc. As we will have a mix of NFT and Grow beds we can look at the relative benefits of each. Of course by going fully commercial there are all sorts of factors that weigh in such as economies of scale, but of course the setup costs will be greater as well... anyway its all a learning exercise.

As far as the system design goes... great idea about putting the gravel bed 'before' the NFT to act as a filter. I was thinking about putting it after purely to remove water/nutrient from the system, putting it before still achieves that but serves a useful dual purpose as well. I have included supplemental nutrient resovoirs in the system design... one for each system (I have 3 systems in the design, all of which take the base nutrient from the fish-tank source). The idea being that I am used to treating flowering plants different from leafy as far as the nutrient mix goes.

The design currently includes 10x9m channels fed by 3 resovoirs. So 3 sets. Each set also has their own grow-bed/filter. I am considering the 'ramp-up' pace. We may start with just 2 channels in operation and then as the fingerlings grow and more nutrient is produced turn on the additional channels and grow beds.

Dealing with bugs... Well, I am hoping that the greenhouse will deal with a big chunk of them. It will be secured with netting and have a solid base. However that wont eliminate the problem entirely. I have seen some interesting technologies around as well as farms that introduce natural predators (like frogs and other bugs) to solve it. Any personal recommendations you can make would be useful.

I will check out those sites you sent in the link. I find myself scouring all sorts of sites trying to glean evey bit of information as I can. Fortunately the aquaponics community love what they do and seem to love talking about it.

Jeremy

[Murray]

Hi JT,
Bugs are a bit of a problem. They have been a real problem this summer I can tell you. I regularly spray with Seasol. It helps. Dipel is a Yates organic spray. It is very good for grubs and the like.
I am cooking up a mix of garlic and hot peppers. Evidently it also works well.

The fish are very sensitive. Insecticides simply cannot be used in a closed loop system.

[GaryD]

Hi Jeremy,

In your quest to provide protein for poverty-stricken villagers, you ought not overlook Japanese quail.

They are the most productive livestock on two legs.....from day old to the table in 42 days.....and they will lay eggs and breed about two weeks after that. They have a feed conversion ratio of about 2:1.

They're much easier to produce than fish and the equipment requirements are much less. Or you could do both.

If you're setting up in Bali, you'll probably be growing Tilapia so duckweed should be part of your system design. Duckweed is a total diet for some Tilapia sub-species.

If you want to know more about quail......here (http://www.aquaponicshq.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=24).

GaryD

[Jeremy Trevatt]

Thanks Gary,

Those quails look interesting. I am also interested in getting a few chickens (for the eggs). Perhaps 6.

I havent investigated using the chicken poop as nutrient though.. thats a new idea for me. I will read further on that. Im also busy trying to organize a worm farm.

After pacing the yard out and doing some initial preparation I calculated that I need to displace about 9 cubic meters of soil in order to get it levelled so I am trying to organize a bobcat to come in and do that, and then I am up and running with the building the shadehouse. I decided that we would do a combo NFT, Floating Raft and Grow Bed... might as well try all three and then I can get some good comparisons of performance.

Jeremy

[GaryD]

Hi Jeremy,

I wouldn't suggest that you use chicken manure as a direct source of nutrients. I'd be inclined to process it first somehow......like feeding it to worms and using the vermicast to make compost tea. I think that would be a better food supply for plants....particularly if it was combined with fish water.

GaryD

[Jeremy Trevatt]

Thanks for that advice Gary. I have been a bit busy in the last week as we have decided to purchase some acreage out West a bit - not entirely due to my aquaponics aspirations I must point out. So, I am holding off on building my greenhouse on my current block as we are getting the house ready for sale. I am looking forward to getting stuck into the Aquaponics on a large scale once we are on the land though!
Jeremy

[Jeremy Trevatt]

Hi again,
I have had a busy few weeks finding some suitable land and getting the sale organized. We ended up buying 15 acres out at Urbenville NSW. We will be moving there in the Christmas holidays this year. In the mean time I have a lot of systems testing to do as well as planning/design of the aquaponics systems to be installed on the property. The land has both a spring-fed and catchment dam at the bottom of the land, and isnt on town-water. So the basic design has to be pumping the water out of the dam and uphill several hundred meters into a resovoir from where it will be filtered and gravity fed into the aquaponics system. I imagine the initial system will be 400sqm non-recirculating NFT/Floating Raft followed by smart-valve control growbeds as discussed in earlier posts.

On another note, I have been testing aeroponics vs growbed (using combo perlite/coco-peat). I have got to say, that even though people having been singing the praises of grow beds (especially with the coco-peat), I have been somewhat disappointed with the results vs the same crops in the aeroponics system. The growth in the aeroponics system is quite measureably more impressive. The good thing about the grow bed has been that it requires a lot less pumping (2 x 20 seconds vs 12 hours continous in aeroponics) and of course holds the moisture more (which is handy during power outages). However if I was really after growth performance I would favour aeroponics. I believe this is probably due to the greater level of oxygen around the roots. Although aeroponics is more of a hobby that a serious commercial venture I believe that if some of its difficulties could be ironed out it would be a superior solution.

From the point of view of implementing the least hassle commercial solution the basic logic seems to be that the simpler and more cost-effective the system design the more viable it becomes. Thus it is easy to see why NFT and Raft systems are used.

Jeremy

[Murray]

Hi Jeremy,
I am envious of your piece of heaven (land)
Beautiful country around there.
Coco-peat and the like would not be the choice of any commercial operation, that's for sure. I no longer use coco-peat in my home system. In the end I felt it did not quite deliver.
Floating raft and NFT are proven commercial methods as you so rightly conclude with floating raft having the edge when all is considered.

[Aquatic Oasis]

Hello Jeremy,

I agree with you that aeroponics is the quickest growing system around. In my years of experience i have found that aeroponics system grow plants at an increased rate of between 30 - 40%. That being said this system requires the most maitenence. To get true aeroponics you need to supply a very fine mist. Most simple aqarium/hydro pumps dont maintain enough pressure to run the misters/microsprays/mirco sprinklers at there full performance. Being a bare root style system there is little margin for error. Pump failure or fitting blockage can result in plant death very quickly. I have found that using salt based hydroponic solultion leads to regular blockage of fittings. I feel this would be a similar situation with AP water due to the bio film.

[GaryD]

Hi,

Bio-film is quite clearly the issue when considering using aeroponics in an aquaponics context.

Coco peat is very widely used in commercial hydroponics. While media-based systems (coco peat, vermiculite, perlite, gravel, expanded clay) are all suited to aquaponics on a small scale, none of them are widely used commercially.... largely because they are either too expensive (like vermiculite, perlite or expanded clay) or too awkward to handle (gravel).

NFT is still the most widely used growing system.....with floating raft just beginning to take hold in Australia.

Gary

[Jeremy Trevatt]

Thanks for those last posts! I have been absent for a while due to other pressures :(.

I have been doing some investigation into the viability of growing crops on a semi-commercial scale. What with transport/fuel costs and the choke-hold that Coles and Woolies seem to have on the growers, its a very 'iffy' proposition at the moment.

Nevertheless, one step at a time. In 'Phase 1' we are simply going to be producing enough for ourselves and to those in need. I really feel for those who are struggling with these food prices at the moment. Cost of living is a real problem for many families.

I love the idea of what Gary has termed 'integrated backyard aquaponics'. We are going to be pushing ahead with this concept on a large scale ourselves. We have quite a list of vegies/fruit/grains/herbs/vines that we think are viable to grow... now just to figure out how to pull it all together with the animals we need. We are considering goats/sheep,chickens,ducks and a milking cow. Quite a list but we need some good poop-producers!

The reality is I have absolutely no clue how to pull it all together. While I have always loved the idea of this I have not been exposed to the realities of it before. No doubt I am going to be doing a lot of reading and talking to the experts over the next 6 months... Gary beware!

I guess our idealistic aim is to become as self-sufficient as possible... I wonder how far you can go with it?

From a commercial 'Phase 3' point of view I feel that the path of least risk would be to grow a mixed salad of produce for restaurants (have to be high quality and consistent production) as well as perhaps something more specialized to go with it such as bulk gourmet pesto's. As mentioned before the transport/fuel costs are the great inhibitor. Transporting product for 2 hours from Urbenville to Brisbane is costly, especially if you are having to deliver to lots of individual restaurants/cafes etc. On the flip side of the coin, if you sell through a distributor you are going to have the margins squeezed on you again... and you become somewhat of a slave to the big boys... so, still figuring out that one.


Jeremy

[Murray]

Jeremy,
The best advise is just to get started. Bite off small bits at a time.
It is the best way to learn. When you are a private individual, capital is usually limited, so each move must be small and sure.
Build or purchase a small system and learn the ropes.

I don't think it is possible to become totally self-sufficient, but working toward it is very rewarding I am sure.
Think closer for your markets, like the Northern Rivers / Gold Coast etc. Transport costs lower and better to sell as local as is possible.

[Martin A1]

Welcome Back JT!
Pleased to hear about your progress and experiences. Please keep us posted
From my limited 1-2yrs personal experience I concurr with Murray's advice to start small and be disciplined about working through each phase of your plan.
Like you, I have, high hopes but realistically I have not come close to self sufficiency yet (would help if I had more time, space and focus). Keep it realistic until you get it fully nutted out.
In addition to staying close to your customers I reckon' the seasons also seem to play a big role. Your customers will want a continuity of supply so you may have to plan and convince them to enjoy different products as the seasons dictate? That will set you apart from Woolies and the like who have managed to mask the seasonal realities by making fruit and veggies available all the time. The apart from the poor taste the price is the only other giveaway that it is out of season!

[Murray]

Here is a link to a site that is just one example of the way Fruit & Veggie sales are moving.
There are lots of these kinds of businesses starting up.
I think that perhaps this might be a way to sell your own goods by starting your own website or selling to such sites that are already up and running.

I am sure it would not be too difficult to sell to them.....good organically grown produce.

Take a look at their price on Basil............... 2.49 a bunch.

My dad had his own fruit and veggie shop for years and as a rule of thumb the retail price was double the market purchase price. That worked out well for him allowing for waste etc and a profit.

So if you were to grow Basil you could expect to get in the order of 1.25 a bunch for it. Wholesale that is.......
If you wanted to earn 750 a week, you would need to produce 600 bunches a week. (You would need to bump that up a bit to allow for electricity, fish food and the like, but for the sake of the exercise we will go with these numbers)

Basil takes 4 to 5 weeks from seedling to become a small bunch so you will need to have 3000 basil plants on the go at any time
In a floating raft system you would need about 150 sqm of greenhouse to house floating rafts to produce that kind of output.
Not very big really.

You could double that and produce the equivalent area with lettuce for example.
And remember the bonus coming steadily while all this veggie growing is going on. The fish are reaching maturity and 12 months after starting there will be a second income stream coming off what is really a very small Commercial Aquaponics system. You could almost fit it in some bigger suburban back yard....;)

The link to the on line fruit and veggie place...This is just one...there are many more ...just Google (http://www.aquaponicshq.com/forums/www.myfruit.com.au)