Inadvertent Aquaponics

[bunya boy]

Having surfed and scoured the net looking for information on this type of "gardening", especially this site, I realise that we had unintentionally set up a small working system for pseudo-aquaponics by accident!
The ceramic pot contains 7 heathy comet goldfish, a flourishing fox tail reed in a gravel filled pot and a tiny aquarium pump feeding water over the "grow bed". This system has been operating for about 3 years with the fish getting fed once a day, the plant being split and replanted elsewhere in the garden when the heads have come and gone (twice so far) and the water has always been crystal clear. We have to top it up regularly, not because of evaporation or transpiration losses, but because our Doberman loves to use it as her drink bowl! The water temperature is always cool, have never actually measured it, but the small amount of water that permeates through to the outside surface of the "porous" pot is evaporated and thus acts as a heat exchange much like our own perspiration on our skin.

Am now considering a larger system, Flood and Drain, for growing of herbs, and other Kitchen vegies for our new house extensions.

Funny what happens when logic prevails.

[Murray]

Good post Bunya Boy,
After all the dust settles, Aquaponics is really very logical and simple. Most folk that run into trouble with Aquaponics are those who try to "reinvent the wheel" so to speak, and come up with all sorts of fanciful schemes. Fish tank, some gravel grow beds and a pump or two and it works fine.

[GaryD]

Hi,

....and some people accept what they're told while others ask what if.....?

Blind acceptance of everything one is told leads one to accept things that are not necessarily based on empirical evidence.......like the notion that grow beds need to be 300mm deep.


Gary

[zact01]

well done bunya boy

its funny how life goes sometimes isnt it. good barb there Gary i agree that you should try things when u think of a better way of doing things. i used to make soap and the accepted method of making soap was heat oils add caustic+water (lye) and stur till ur arm fell off. then one day a person thought stuff that how bout i try and put my oils and lye together then boil in a dobble boiler. well that worked and ppl had a great time using this inspreaton to come up with 4 other methods of making soap (at least it was that many last time i looked 4 years ago) so a bit of creativity is always use fill as long as u know the basics (at fist accept what you are told then experiment once you know what ur doing).

just my 5 cents

regards

zacto1

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http://stuff-zacs-into.110mb.com/

[GaryD]

Hi,

Some people practise a fairly standard model of aquaponics and others (like me) pursue integrated aquaculture.

Integrated aquaculture preceded aquaponics and where aquaponics is fairly specific in its intent (namely fish and plants - usually in a recirculating system), integrated aquaculture is much broader.

It's all good.....and what works for one person won't necessarily work as well for someone else.....which is why we have lots of variations on the basic themes.

GaryD

[bunya boy]

Back Again. . . .

Dr Charles Mayo said " The only permanent thing in life is change.." and Marc Antony said " Prove to me that my thinking is wrong and it will change it gladly!"

I have decided to start off with a small Flood and Drain system for growing herbs and the like (but not Mint apparently!) on a deck originally designed for pot plant and troughs. I have attached a PDF with a couple of renderings and a section drawing of the system.

Any feed back on the feasibility would be appreciated.

Thanks, Ian K.

[Murray]

HI Bunya Boy,
Looks pretty good to me. Love the drawing.
I can't see any reason why it would not work really well.

[GaryD]

Hi Ian,

I'd like your drawing skills. Your system looks good. You will need a good pump to achieve that head height. You'll be looking at a submersible sump pump rather than a pond pump.

Gary

[bunya boy]

Thanks for the input, I feel a little more confident now.
After a bit more planning and using the left over stuff I have on hand from the house extensions etc. (such as the water bed heater pad, probe and thermostat, stainless mesh, mini-trunking and the blue stripe poly pressure pipe etc.), I have detailed up the proposed fish tank for you to comment upon.
This proposal uses Gary's 800(sic) litre poly tank as the basis of the set-up.
(Sorry Gary, I had to give your good lady a task to measure the tanks for me so I could detail one!!) I also have a submersible sump pump on hand (brand new but never used) which delivers about 3500l/h at 4m head. This will allow for about 3 water changes per Flood cycle.

I will need to purchase the other items of equipment( air pumps and stones, relays, battery, charger and solar span panels, as well as test kits and the like), but they can come over time as I use and fabricate what I have on hand. All this equipment, I notice, is available from GD or MA and other sites that are shown in these forums.

There are still a couple of unknowns that I wish to quantify if possible. As you may well have guessed, I am a ****** Virgo and everything has to be detailed before I jump.

"God is in the concept . . . the Devil is in the detail"

I was planning to have an insulated hinged lid over the tank with a slot for the return/supply lines but if this was closed to serve the insulation purpose and also exclude children, pets, birds, pests and possums; but. . . it would also exclude any light from the tank. Do fish require daylight for their healthy existence? The lid could be propped open, but then it destroys the other desirable properties. So is a "solid" lid the answer? I am thinking about using a clear or semi-transparent lid material such as multi-wall Makralon which is expensive but it serves both purposes? The tank is under cover of a deck so it is not a matter of exculding extra water etc.

Thanks for all of your ongoing input, I really look forward to it. I will be posting pictures as we go along the fabrication, installation and commisioning roads.

Cheers Ian K.

[Martin A1]

Thanks for the input, I feel a little more confident now.


Ian your plan looks awesome! A very detailed and professional approach.

Here's my two bobs worth and hopefully answers to some of your questions.

I think fish prefer it darker than lighter so go for the darker end of the scale. When you go to the ocean how many fish do you see parading in the clear light? Not many as they are generally hiding in the dark spots. Its a natural defense mechanism.

You are on the right track in saying that you want an insulated, safe set-up which is protected from external water and debris entering your system. You still need access to the top of the tank however to perform maintenance and observe your system so make sure you allow for this.

I love the water bed heater idea but your positioning is under the tank. Can you put it against one of the sides and allow for easy access to replace it if breaks? Would hate to see the effort involved to replace this bit if it broke.

I am not sure why you are planning a stainless steel cylindrical shield for your submersible pump. What are you shielding it from? Fish don't seem to mind my pump? Your just reducing the amount of water space they have access to?

It all looks great though mate and is the most professional approach I have seen to date.... great work! I would love to see the final budget estimates compared to the existing systems available on the market. I reckon their are some great design ideas in this set-up.

Thanks for sharing you plan now and as you progress.... and you are correct in assuming the devil is in the detail.... can't wait until your rubber hits the road!

It is a great plan mate, so go forward with confidence!

[Murray]

The water bed heater is a good idea. Come winter heating the tank becomes a very big issue.
If this summer's weather is any guide, we are in for a "different" winter.
Last winter I spent a fortune on my power bill keeping my Silver perch growing. My power bill was up by 300.00 over two quarters. It makes the fish very expensive.
I purchased an 1800 watt immersion heater which kept the temp up but also kept the power bill up.
Perhaps the waterbed heater would be more efficient.

This winter I am going to rely on having an enclosed greenhouse and some sort of solar water heater arrangement.
GaryD made a mini greenhouse to cover his grow beds and that worked fine for him... kept the temp up pretty well as I remember.
I had better get onto it, time is ticking by.

[bunya boy]

Thanks for your encouraging input Martin, Gary and Murray.
To comment on a couple of things you mentioned, please have a perusal at the following,
The water bed heater is being used only because I have one left over from when "the leader of the opposition" decided that the old water bed had had it's day and she wanted the liner and bladder as weed sheets in the garden! and I thought it may be a good recycling use for the heater system.
Mounting the pad on the side of the tank wall would not be as effective as underneath because most of the generated heat would rise up the insulation cavity and be lost to atmosphere. The manufacturer's instalation instructions require at least 200mm of water cover and Energex require the same. If the pad shorts out, I agree that it would be hard to replace, but I am prepared for the extra work it will take to replace it . . . if indeed it works in the first place, of course!
I have looked into using a smaller version of the solar collector used for pool and spa heating (Roof mounted Black pipe manifold and solar cell powered circulation pump) and piping the warmed water to an under tank reticulation similar to "underfloor panel heating". This avoids direct "hot" water contact from potentialy harming the fish. This form of gradual heat transfer/exchange seems a better and safer method than direct recirculation of the tank water and also the perceived problem of exaserbated biofilm build up etc. I am still researching this method of heating (and cooling) for the fish tank/s, especially the methodoligy of automated thermostatic temperature control.

It is a bit of a juggling act because, from this forum and others, the fish are the most important item to consider. I have yet to read of a "plant kill"! from power failures, water quality or temperature and the like, but I see a lot of "fish kills". A lot of these "kills" come from reduced Disolved Oxygen levels in the tank water. We know that cold water can hold far more oxygen than hot or warm water, so heating and circulating tank water directly would seem to be counter productive; both for D.O. levels and the need for gradual change in conditions rather than abrupt. To effect temperature change in the tank as a whole, the circulated water will need to be heated far in excess of the final tank water mass and drive off more D.O.
Maintenance of high D.O. levels is also the reason I have incorporated an air pump running 24/7 with relay 12V battery back-up.

The reason for the introduction of the Stainless Steel mesh is to prevent small fingerlings from being sucked into the pump to meet their demise. The pump I have can handle solids up to 10 to 15mm, so some form of protection for small fish was considered desirable. I also already have some Black powder coated, Stainless Steel insect mesh (similar to "Crimsafe") that I am going to use, so it is not going to cost any extra.

Martin: . . . "budget? . . . . what charter boat?"

I truthfully haven't even considered total costs as yet. Seeing I have a lot of the materials I require at hand, I haven't started to buy anything yet. I will start making the grow beds and frame this coming W/E and I will keep you all posted on progress. I was also going to arrange to go to Gary's to have a look at his set-up this W/E, but he is not contactable at a Gold Coast conference until Friday, so that may have to wait.

Cheers, Ian K.

[bunya boy]

O.K. Ladies and Gents, after almost 12 months of reading, looking, questioning and generally procrastinating, I have finally made a start on my first system.
It will be much the same as I originally envisaged with a few minor changes to be incorporated from researching and good advice received from the forums. The grow beds above the fish tanks is a "no brainer" for me as I built a purpose made deck to place the Grow Beds on for ease of access.
1. It will now be a slow flood, quick drain system to allow for a smaller pump flow and no timers being required. Bell siphons and side exit.
2. Grow beds now to be 100 Litres each, sized to suit a standard sheet of 910 wide Mini Orb and a length to suit a polycarb "hot box" lid I already have.
3. Still using all left over materials from my house extensions, only purchasing bits and pieces as required. I will still have to buy operational items such as test kits, thermometers, air pumps and relays etc, but Murray's supplies will fill that need. The major items of the fish tank and new pumps will also come from that source, so Murray, look out, here I come!

The drawings attached are my working drawings, updated to suit the new design. I have also attached my full size former template that I printed and 'glue sticked' to a single 1200x600 sheet of 15mm WP ply that I had left over. I just jig sawed around the curved profiles and power sawed the straight bits.

I will progressively post photos and the like to show you the progress.

This has all happened with a boost from "Her in the Garden", who was so impressed with the growth of Finn's Narcissus bulb, that she is now expecting to be able to grow her flowers and the like for her Garden Club competitions in my system!! So, thanks, Finn . . . . .? I think?

Cheers All. Ian K.:D

[fishfood]

Just reading your thread you are almost on the right track mini ord is galvanized that's a definite no no in aquaponics

[bunya boy]

Thanks for that FF,
and because I don't trust direct water contact with Zincalume in the system either, I am lining the Mini-Orb sheeting with Pond liner. It will wrap around the ends of the sheeting by about 20mm to help form the seal with the Foam filler rod and the Aquarium type Silicon sealant to the end FC sheeting and the ply former.
I'm going to take a bit of a punt with the Duragal Angle framing at the top support, in that it shouldn't come into direct contact with water and it isn't a zinc "coating" that can readily oxidise and dissolve into the water.
If I ever make some more GB's from Mini-Orb, it will be Aqua plated for use in potable water storage tanks.

Cheers Ian K :cool:

[bunya boy]

Quick update,

Size of outer pipe shield is now 100mm diameter instead of 90mm diameter.
Reason: couldn't get my hand down the 90mm pipe for service access. Because my outer pipe shield and the siphon pipe are both fixed in my design, I need to remove the Bell pipe for maintenance. Couldn't even get my fingers into the 90mm diameter pipe to grasp the bell cap fitting to lft it out.

Live and Learn!:D

[bunya boy]

Started fabrication of Grow Beds. Pics are annotated to explain process etc.
Cheers Ian K.

[bunya boy]

More Pics.

[bunya boy]

Update on fabrication.
Went to see Gary and Jan's set-up with the "Golden Handbrake" in tow to show her a working system. I am now totally convinced that the Herbs and Flowers will be a definite goer for our set-up. Good to see that Jan's Red Claw has finally whelped!

Photos attached are self annotated as an explaination.
More to follow in a minute.

Cheers IanK

[bunya boy]

The rest of the Pic's from the W/E. Will finish the GB's 1&2 next W/E, place the liners and start construction of GB's 3&4, which will go a lot quicker now I know the pitfalls I encountered with the first one.
Will be visiting Murray shortly to have a squizz at his lot and probably pick up some gear at the same time. Be in touch shortly Murray.

Cheers IanK

[Jason Palenske]

I really love how your taking time to fit it in with the rest of the decking Bunya. I think it will serve you well in the end.:D

[bunya boy]

Jason,
I have deliberately designed the materials and finishes to give visual continuity with our building extensions. As well as using scraps of left over building materials, I have not bought a lot except for the 25mm (1") pipe work and fittings.
Whilst most other systems I have seen, either on site or by looking at the photos on the forums, appear to be constructed for portability(?) or more of a transitory and changing nature.
I have decided on a more permanent, custom made installation, that would not really fit anywhere else, for our first venture. The deck was purpose built for Plants (it was originally intended to be an indoor plant recovery deck for "Her in the Garden" but she has agreed to let me have it for a more permanent 'change of use'.)
Thanks for your feed-back, it is always encouraging to say the least.

And Finn, if you read this I will show you a couple of pics of "Her" Eucharist lily she grew weeks ahead of time by using water out of our original "inadvertant" fish/plant tank.:D

Cheers IanK.

[Finn]

Sweet setup. That is going to look great when it is complete and full of plants. Looking forward to the Lily pics.

Finn

[bunya boy]

Thanks Finn,
Here are the lillies . . she is hoping they will last in full flower until next Tuesday when she has her Garden Club's Bring-n-Show! I'm sure they will, there is a new head to break open to-day or tomorrow.

I'm going to try and get to murray's place this weekend, so I will probably come back with some more gear to add to the system. Softly, softly . .catchey Monkey. . .

Cheers IanK

[organicusrex]

Ian,

Amazingly detailed drawings. Your design looks like it would work well in a tight space. I need to read all the installments in this thread to get a better grasp on it all. Thanks

Dean