Martin A1's 2nd System

[Martin A1]

Well my second system is underway. 1800ltr Gal tank is in place and building ammonia levels as we speak. 2 of 3 new grow beds are in place, piping and gravel to come next week.

It was so hot (humid) on the weekend that I rushed a few things. I used the timber frame that my grow beds were shipped on with some mods for the first grow bed stand. I did not space the concrete block footings very well and then had a concern about overall strength so I added a third set of concrete blocks as supports... which made getting the levels really hard!!! Will probably do a water fill test to see how it all takes the weight. It doesn't look right and I am still dubious that I rushed it and will need to redo it before the gravel goes in! The second one worked out much better. Just keen to get the silly thing cycling!! Time is money.... or fish growth and food anyway! :)

I have ordered 2 tonnes (approx 1.25 cubic mtrs) of 20mm blue metal and half a cubic mtr of 14mm scoria (volcanic rock) which I plan to mix in the base of each grow bed for better bacteria growth??

Stay tuned for more updates.

[Murray]

Good one Martin, good use for the old pallet you are using under the grow bed. That is a good example of recycling.
I get those pallets from a mate of mine who has a sheet metal shop. His sheet metal comes in on those pallets, so they have had several uses.
Looks like it will be good.
It pays to make sure it is right first up. It is almost impossible to re-do it once you have shovelled all that gravel, so an extra hour or two now is time well spent.
Shovelling that gravel, now that's a job......

[Martin A1]

Yes Murray, I just know I will be redoing it this weekend before I put the gravel in.... you just have to get that sort of thing right first time around don't you! I will also work it back to two concrete block supports as well.

It seems everything I do, I do at least twice:o! I guess that is how you learn weekend warrior style :)

I was thinking of fishfood when I decided to recycle the old pallet.... ie if it's free recycle it :) Saved me $30 in timber costs!

[Martin A1]

Hi Everyone,

I have made some progress and my new system is starting to take shape.

See attached photo's.

I have rectified the grow bed footings by redoing all of them! I also managed to set my three beds in a line which was a change of plans. This has saved on piping costs, looks asthetically better and makes better use of the available space. I may also be able to create a pergola cover for all beds coming off my garage...a phase II enhancement.

I have a single water dispertion pipe that runs across all three beds. This is a major cost saving in pipes and flow control taps. The water returns via a single pipe. I have been able to fill each bed with water to assess the pipe flows and confirm structural strength. Some minor adjustments needed but all pretty good so far.

My 100 silvers from Aquablue hatchery have been delayed and are now due in mid January... probably a good thing!

Stay tuned for a further update when I get things cycling.

[Martin A1]

I have clearly been avoiding the gravel washing and installation process but will tackle it this weekend. Its always agood idea to get everything set before you install the gravel as once its in the grow beds will not move.

I have plans to use a 50/50 mixture of 14mm Scoria (volcania rock) and 20mm blue metal. The scoria has lots of nooks and cranies which I believe will harbour those wonderful bacteria so crucial to this process. The colour combo will look good too I reckon.

I have also reluctantly included a picture of yours truly all taken by my 4YO daughter... must get that haircut before Christmas!

Oh yeah, I have to move that damn cloths line too!

[Murray]

Martin, It's looking good. I have found that I need individual adjusters on each bed , input that is. You may find it will work for you as you have it.
The only way is to run the system and see how it settles in.
It is a matter of personal preference re the washing of the gravel. I only have tank water so I cannot use water to wash the gravel. If you have enough water then go for it.

[Martin A1]

Thanks Murray,

Yes I will have to see how the water flow goes to each bed. I will let you know. The only controll I have will be the number of holes over each bed. I may need more over the furthest bed? I have a strong pump so it may not be a problem?

Re: washing of gravel I use tank water to do it also. I actually have a small 150ltr container. Last time I washed a big bucket or two at a time using a 1.5X1.5 peice of wire fly screen mesh.

This allows me to wash the gravel pretty well without washing too much water. A water change is required every hour or so.

The down side is that it is hard work and slow!

[Murray]

Hydraulics are very interesting, with a strong pump the most water seems to go to the further most point, but then I notice that the further most points block with solid material more quickly than the closer outlet holes.
I find that there is a bit of maintenance required on the lines.
I do not wash my gravel, I find that it all settles out over a 3 or 4 week period anyway.
Gravel grow beds are marvellous filters.

[GaryD]

Hi Martin,

Your system is coming together nicely.

I'm with Murray on the need for a control valve on each bed. You need to be able to regulate the flow into each bed

Can you walk down both sides of the grow beds? I can't see from looking at the photos.

Gary

[Martin A1]

Yes, I think you both may be correct about the necessity for separate flow control to each bed. After two days of further thinking, I have reconsidered. Luckily I did not cut or drill anything yet. I had also already purchased enough 25mm pipe to get the job done that way anyway. I just need two more gate valves and fittings.

I am thinking of a T shape distribution pipe setup in each grow bed with the top of the T running lengthwise and each gate control valve entering from a central position on the garage side... Does that make sense? Any thoughts? Just not sure I need piping all the way around each grow bed?

Re: access: I can get down both sides although there would only be about 25-30cms between the grow bed and garage wall. Just enough to get down under the grow bed to attach pipe fittings etc.

I have great access from the other side and long arms :)

[GaryD]

Hi Martin,

A watering pipe that runs the length of the bed should be adequate.

The rationale for perimeter grids was that they distributed fish solids evenly around the bed.

Mine used to run around the perimeter of the bed but I've modified them because, in my view, it's unnecessary. You can see the new arrangement......here (http://www.aquaponicshq.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=591&d=1197108793). It costs less to set up, it's easier to maintain and it takes up less bed space.

Most aquaponicists with established systems report having worms in their grow beds.....and the worms will distribute any solid wastes that accumulate along the length of the pipe. As the worms process those wastes, they will go back into solution and become more accessible to the plants in the system.

Gary

[fishfood]

My first beds had a grid system the later ones just dump in the end away from the drain so far i cant see a difference[ yes there is worms in the system]

[Martin A1]

Mine used to run around the perimeter of the bed but I've modified them because, in my view, it's unnecessary. You can see the new arrangement......here (http://www.aquaponicshq.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=591&d=1197108793). It costs less to set up, it's easier to maintain and it takes up less bed space.


Cheers Gary, It was actually your post that inspired me although I had been thinking along those lines (ie KISS principle) I was just taking it one step further having a single water dispertion pipe cross all three grow beds as they are aligned nicely for that.

Given the different distance each bed is from the pump and slightly different levels etc I expect that it would present problems getting the water distributed evenly to each bed. The only control you would have would be the amount and size of the holes in each pipe above each bed and the overall water pressure. I reckon' you would be tinkering with that for ever unlike the nice simple turn of a tap adjustment to each bed.

Off to the irrigation shop I go again this afternoon.... to chalk up another $50 bucks or whatever against my project... I must see a return soon or the bank manager (wife) may foreclose:(

[Murray]

Unfortunately there is a bit of expense in the beginning, but wait until you are picking those tomatoes. It is all worth it I can assure you.

I started off using nice chrome on brass ball valves at 14.00 each, but now I use plastic ball valves 4 to 7 dollars each depending on where you get them. If you are using 25mm class 12 pvc pipe the 25mm ball valve will glue straight into the line wherever you want to put it. This saves buying threaded sockets to be able to screw directly into a threaded ball valve.
In your case you will need a few "T" fittings to come off your main line to the ball valve and then on to the individual bed.

[Jonathan Dyer]

Hi guys,

Yes a ball value on every grow bed is almost essential. Unfortunately, I do hate those cheap $7.00 ball valves they have a tendency to become brittle in the weather quite quick they become stiff in its leaver action as well as sometimes leaking from the top O-ring making it hard to fix. The Philmac ball valves are great I use them on my grow beds or where frequent adjustment may be likely yet, I do use the cheaper ones where they are likely to be used only occasionally I can buy 4 of these cheap ones ($7each) for the price of 1 Philmac valve ($30each). The Philmac valves without a doubt will last many times over a cheap one even a metal ball valve is cheaper than the Philmac ones.

Well if you believe you can get away from using the cheap ones by all means get them they are still OK but not the best that’s all. Besides you don’t want to annoy the wife much more a divorce is much more expensive than a few ball valves. :) Good luck with your setup over Christmas Martin.

[fishfood]

My 2 cents worthyou can by 4 cheap ball valves for the price of expencive ones i have had them running here over 12 months once the thing is set up theres no need to adjust also i had them running on a large vegie garden [1 acre] on the farm for 6 years with no problem

[Martin A1]

Thanks Gentlemen...

Wish I had logged on to the forum earlier today....:o. I knocked off work a 2pm as I had an appointment with the butcher (Christmas ham) and irrigation shop!

I went out and bought the expensive $20 each brass gate valves! Only needed 2 but still. I saw the plastic ball value option at half the price but when the sales lady said they are not UV rated I brushed them immediately.

Oh well I do live by the moto that quality remains long after price is forgotten and these brass suckers will out last me, so money well spent I reckon!

They are gate valve types too so I will have plenty of water flow control. I also have little ones who just love messing up my ball valve rig on my other system.

I saw a nice idea for grey water recycle at the shop which I will post on a separate thread.

Note to myself.... ask questions earlier and wait for the collective knowledge of many before spending.

[Murray]

I have tried a few different options on our kits we make up re ball valves etc as used on grow bed flow adjustment. We learn more each week by client feed back and by trials on my own system. We have just gone back to using the chrome on brass ball valves and I feel we will stick with that from now on.
Easy to adjust, last forever, easy to kid proof, once set handle is easily removed and re installed, handle angle gives a visual idea as to the setting. Overall clients like them better than anything else we have tried. (chrome on brass ball valves that is.)
But having said that, individual hobbyists may have a different criteria for their choice, if it is straight out low price that is important, then the plastic ball valve is good.
Gate valves are the most expensive and tend to leak out of the shaft after a time. Also, if someone fiddles with the adjustment there is no visual indication on the position of the handle as there is with ball valves in general.

[Martin A1]

mmmm I did see those..... and have one on my rain water tank already. I didn't realize you could remove the handles easily. Kid proofing it for me is an objective.
maybe I will exercise my right to an exchange! :)
thanks everyone

[notable]

Hi Guys
Just to add to the plumbing comments
Check out
www.wetearth.com.au
pvc and poly fittings about half retail
Freight is extra $16, but if you order enough gear, its damn cheap
cheers
Rodney

[Jonathan Dyer]

Thanks notable for that site.

According to there web site If I was to buy a 32mm PVC ball valve it would cost me $36 for freight alone. I may save $0.20 over buying it at my local irrigation supply shop I would need to buy 180 valves just to break even with freight recovery.

The site is good but there prices are not much different to other people, there may be several items that are well worth wild but I dont think they cut in my book.

[Murray]

Thanks for the info Notable,

The freight on that site is ok. I just put a dummy order in and the freight went up on the first two items then it remained the same thereafter.
On 1 item worth 3.00 the freight was 12.00 to my postcode.
On 180.00 worth of fittings the freight was 23.00
That is very good really.
I find that people object to paying freight, which is a bit odd really if you think about it. The stuff has to get to where it is going somehow. The bloke driving the truck has to be paid. Every body is entitled to make a living.

If I can get an order delivered to my door for 20 or so dollars I am much better off. You can go into the trade store and stand around waiting to be served, there is the time and the fuel to drive to the trade store etc. If a bit of thought is put into it, it is often better to pay the freight.
I think I will give them a go for my next lot of stuff for our kits.
Their piece prices are not bad at all.
I have a so called "Trade Wholesale" account at a large plumbing supply house and a lot of the prices on this web site in question are better than my super hot "Trade" prices I get from my regular supplier.

[notable]

Hi Murray
The secret is to buy all you need (or think you will) in one order.
This was my invoice:
Product Ordered Price Amount
PVC Ball Valve Slip 25mm 4 $4.82 $19.28
PVC Cat 3 Faucet Adaptor 25mm 4 $1.67 $6.68
PVC Cat 6 Cap 25mm 10 $0.64 $6.40
PVC Cat 13 90º Elbow 25mm 10 $0.81 $8.10
PVC Cat 19 Tee 25mm X 25mm X 25mm 10 $1.02 $10.20
PVC Cross 25mm 6 $2.88 $17.28
NyGlass threaded Tank Inlet 25mm 3 $4.76 $14.28
Freight $16.00
TOTAL (inclusive GST) $98.22
They are based in Albury (NSW/Vic Border), so thats only about 150 k from me, hence the $16 freight
cheers
Rodney

[Jonathan Dyer]

I have a trade account as well and the prices are not much different. So what I said still remains dont forget I live on the other side of the country yet I dont mind paying for the freight it is just something someone needs to take into account. It only costs me $4 return to drive into town for the fuel.

If I was to buy one item it wouldnt be worth it but buying more it could be for me. Everyone has different situations where they are better off or not but is worth double cheacking to see what senario is the most cost effective. Good to see that you had a look Murray.

[Murray]

So true Jonathan, it depends on your situation. The freight to and from WA is a killer. We have sent a number of our boats over there over the years and the freight is a major problem.