Backup - Standby Equipment

[ChilliBear]

I'm struggling to find an automatic power backup switch in the UK. I want to have a 12v pump for if the mains power fails. Can anyone point me in the right direction? I seem to always end up at generators, boats or caravan mains supply switching pages ?

Thanks

ChilliBear

[bunya boy]

Hi CFB,
I'm sure Murray can get this to you ands I'm sure Gary won't mind me directing you there.
http://www.aquaponics.net.au/product/category12_1.htm
I use the 12V/240V relay switch, the Projector battery charger, 500GPH 12V Bilge pump and the Power Stream venturi for both air and water circulation in the fish tank.
All works well.

Cheers IanK

[arachdog]

Hi CFB,
I'm sure Murray can get this to you ands I'm sure Gary won't mind me directing you there.
http://www.aquaponics.net.au/product/category12_1.htm
I use the 12V/240V relay switch, the Projector battery charger, 500GPH 12V Bilge pump and the Power Stream venturi for both air and water circulation in the fish tank.
All works well.

Cheers IanK

Damn, that's one expensive relay in a box!

This will do the trick, but you'll have to wire it up yourself:
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=2533518

[ChilliBear]

Hi Ian,

Thanks for replying. I had seen the one on Murry's site, I also thought it's pretty expensive considering what it is but I'm no electrician. Thanks for the other link I will look at this in more detail tonight. I'm still researching whilst my house sale goes through. I knew someone here would be able to point me in the right direction.

Cheers

Adrian

[Crusty]

Would Murray's do the voltage etc in the UK?

[bunya boy]

Hi All,
The relay system may seem expensive, but it works from day one, it is guaranteed for years, it is SAFE!, and it is horses for courses. I will dabble with timber_make a mistake and you get splinters; I will play with metal_make a mistake and you get scratched; I will even do some plumbing_make a blue and you get wet! I know what I'm doing with those things.
But play with 240v and make a mistake; you get dead!
By the time you factor in sourcing the waterproof box, leads, plugs, clamps, clips and the workings itself, I would far rather rely on expertise I don't have, to provide me with a guaranteed system item that is assured to function, and I'm prepared to shell out a couple of bucks for it. It really is cheap insurance for your fish with peace of mind and I know, having lost 200 Jade Perch by not having a back-up!! So don't tell me it's expensive!!
Let's have a look at your back-up system ArachDog, and show us what cheap alternative you actually use? I would also like to have a look at any actual system back up you are using Crusty?
I'd be very interested in any photos of systems and components you actually operate and use in your systems.

Looking forward to lots of photos. Cheers IanK.

[Crusty]

The relay system may seem expensive, but it works from day one, it is guaranteed for years, it is SAFE!
Didn't know Murray guaranteed anything, it is certainly not written on his site. Interesting that you say it is guaranteed for years. My suggestion was, it may not work on UK power, as from memory they are different to us.


By the time you factor in sourcing the waterproof box, leads, plugs, clamps, clips and the workings itself, I would far rather rely on expertise I don't have, to provide me with a guaranteed system item that is assured to function, and I'm prepared to shell out a couple of bucks for it. It really is cheap insurance for your fish with peace of mind and I know, having lost 200 Jade Perch by not having a back-up!! So don't tell me it's expensive!!
Didnt say it was expensive, though I know that Murray is not the only one to have backup systems... In fact, in the US (not the UK) http://www.basementwatchdog.com/ have some excellent set ups (not rated for AU at the moment) that are specifically designed as a back up system. They are correctly rated, guaranteed, built for purpose and all the things people would expect from a product they buy.


I would also like to have a look at any actual system back up you are using Crusty? I'd be very interested in any photos of systems and components you actually operate and use in your systems.
What's up your jumper today Ian? Am I not entitled to an opinion or something? I am certain you and others would be interested in photos, but for now you will live without them mate.

I tried to upload an image of our backup switch and it says "this PNG file has the wrong extention"...

[arachdog]

Hi All,
The relay system may seem expensive, but it works from day one, it is guaranteed for years, it is SAFE!, and it is horses for courses. I will dabble with timber_make a mistake and you get splinters; I will play with metal_make a mistake and you get scratched; I will even do some plumbing_make a blue and you get wet! I know what I'm doing with those things.
But play with 240v and make a mistake; you get dead!
By the time you factor in sourcing the waterproof box, leads, plugs, clamps, clips and the workings itself, I would far rather rely on expertise I don't have, to provide me with a guaranteed system item that is assured to function, and I'm prepared to shell out a couple of bucks for it. It really is cheap insurance for your fish with peace of mind and I know, having lost 200 Jade Perch by not having a back-up!! So don't tell me it's expensive!!
Let's have a look at your back-up system ArachDog, and show us what cheap alternative you actually use? I would also like to have a look at any actual system back up you are using Crusty?
I'd be very interested in any photos of systems and components you actually operate and use in your systems.

Looking forward to lots of photos. Cheers IanK.

I'd show you BB but I don't have a system, let alone a back up for it. It's pending construction of my shed. I don't disagree with your sentiments about not messing about with mains if you don't fully understand it. In this particular case though the wiring really is very simple and you'll get a wiring diagram with the relay (or possibly you may need download the datasheet), and it's not like you'd be messing with live voltages since you obviously wouldn't plug it in until you had the box all sealed up. Even so if the box from Murray had a reasonable profit margin on it I would probably still reccomend its purchase, because as you quite rightly say doing it yourself is a bit a faffing around. Its just annoys me when people who do possess a little knowledge in this area, try to exploit those that don't.

Crusty: They operate 240v the same as us, but the plug is different.

[bunya boy]

Crusty,
What's up your jumper today Ian?
New drugs! Roid Rage! I'm not sure anymore . . .
Sometimes I get carried away with the moment I seize: and it's normally the wrong moment!
This diatribe is not directed at you or ArachDog in any way, shape or form: I present this in general to attempt to explain at large.

There is a perceived difference, to me anyway, between expressing an opinion and being opiniated. Sometimes that perception gets me into trouble. I believe that opinion is developed based on fact, expressing uninformed opinions as fact is being "opiniated".

I have come across opiniated people many times in at lot of endeavours. The one I "like" most is "I don't know much about Art, but my 2 year old can do better than that!" or in a similar vein (when exhibiting some of my pencil works) "Yeah, I had a cousin (sister, brother, neice, Uncle etc. insert favourite relative or aquaintance) who did that, blah, blah, blah!" when you know damned well they had, or did, nothing of the sort!! Just had to appear to know best without any actual hands-on experience or knowledge and expouse it to all and sundry.

The same thing happens to me professionally; ". . . . just draw your own house plans up, it's easy!" Yeah! Right! That's why I spent 6 years of professional training and have had 40 years experience to make it "easy".
As I said, horses for courses, I don't go to a Butcher to buy Candles!
So, that's the feeling I get sometimes when I read personally disparaging remarks directed towards people and/or products that I use and try to pass on my working experience with them without fear or favour.

So, I value your informed opinions and experiences, but I don't give any credibility to un-informed opinion; regardless of the source.

UK is 240V but diferent plug/pin configuration, USA is 220V; again with a different plug/pin configuration, and, no, you didn't say it was expensive, Arachdog did. Everything I buy from Team Economics comes with a guarantee, normally the manufacturer's but in the case of purpose made equipment by TE, they come with the statutory buyer's warranty as well as a personal one from Murray, which I value.

I will stop the hi-jack now, crawl back under my rock and here's a picture or two of my back-up. (Not pictures of having my "Back Up!")

Cheers IanK

[Crusty]

Crusty,

There is a perceived difference, to me anyway, between expressing an opinion and being opiniated. Sometimes that perception gets me into trouble. I believe that opinion is developed based on fact, expressing uninformed opinions as fact is being "opiniated".

That is interesting that you form and uninformed opinion of what I am actually informed about. Then, in that sentence you suggest, out the side of your mouth, that I am opinionated. Further, I did not form or express any opinion about the backup switch, I merely asked if it would be suitable for the UK. You obviously have some other gripe with me mate, even though I don't know you from a bar of soap. I do know you made a really cool looking IBC but that is about all I know.

Some of my photos were here prior to some forum glitch. Just just for you Ian, I have whipped up a few pdfs with some pictures. You will note the type of backup system I am used to in one of them. Does it count if I don't own and operate them? The other shows our backup switch, which we sell and shows just how easy they really are to make.

[GaryD]

Hi All,

On the matter of entitlement to opinion......this forum encourages technical debate on aquaponics and related food production matters by anyone who has something to say.

Arachdog has undertaken formal studies in aquaculture and Crusty has several years of experience in the design and installation of aquaculture systems......so I judge both to be able to comment coherently on matters relating to back up systems (regardless of whether they currently have a system operating or not).

On the matter of the back up systems that were originally proposed......while its price is a matter for the market to make up its own mind about, my greater concern is whether the relay switch was assembled by a licensed electrician and appropriately certified. In the case of this product, the answer is quite likely not.

In better times, I was aware that Murray was wiring these devices himself. Since he is not a licensed electrician, it raised the question of professional liability (and eligibility for insurance) in the event that someone electrocuted themselves or if their property burned.

My strong advice would be to only use a back up relay switch that had been built by appropriately qualified people and certified for use by your local power utility.

Gary

[bunya boy]

I have been suitably chastised and mollified, you won't hear another peep from me!
Love the photos on the PDF's. Big Stuff Crusty! not at all like my piddling little system with 6 Comets and a Parsley leaf!
I don't have a personal gripe with you Crusty, or anyone else in particular, as I said it is just perception and I'm normally wrong!
Give me a couple of days to get over the change in meds and I'll be back to my normal humble, unassuming, modest and depricating self.
I might drop in and see your stuff when I'm out at Redbank picking the good lady wife up from work. Give you a call beforehand if that's O.K.?
Cheers IanK

[GaryD]

Hi,

BB.....some days are diamonds and some days are stones.......for all of us.

For everyone.......unaccustomed as I am to keeping the peace (given that I'm usually one of the parties that is breaking it), I request that everyone play nicely.

Gary

[Shane]

WOW.....great looking set ups Crusty,
Thanks for sharing the pic's.

Cheers,
Shane.

[ChilliBear]

Wow, something in the water?

I really didn't want to stir up any heated discussion here. I was only asking for advice from more experienced people.

I value everyones opinion even if I don't necessarily agree with it or act on it.

Safety of course comes first but it's not like we are playing with the electricity here. We are simply looking at a way to sense "no power" and the switch to a DC battery.
I just felt this should be relatively easy for any electronics student (nope I am not one but many many house hold appliances use this type of circuit).
And in the UK we have the added benefit of having an earth wire:)

Folks, thanks for posting replies and the photo's. Crusty(thats just what I needed to see to confirm that it was a simple switch).

Peace now for our little AP family.

[arachdog]

We have an earth too, but its not a requirement to use it as long as the casing is non-conductive.



We are simply looking at a way to sense "no power" and the switch to a DC battery.

That would in fact be the far more elegant way to do it. The disadvantage of the simple relay scheme is that its energized all the time. The one I posted a link to draws about 100ma, which equates to nearly 30kw\h a year. Which is $6 of your hard earned money down the drain every year. Now I'm sure you all find that to be absolutely outrageous and I can hear you asking "What can we do??".

Never fear I have the solution. Use a micro-controller and a wire pickup to inductively sense the current running to your pump or aeration or whatever. The micro-controller can be put to sleep and set to wake up when the sensed voltage turns off, and activate the relay. The standby power usage of this setup would be virtually nothing, mere micro-amps.

Also can we all stand and take note I just reached a byte's worth of quality, quality, posts :)

[Tsaphah]

Hi ChilliBear, have a look over here (http://www.aquaponics.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=396&page=3), I posted a pic of a BU unit that uses a plug pack, so extra low voltage, and I'm sure you may have one lying around. Sure you could use a micro-controller, but then use it to monitor and control the whole system, not just a power failuse, and you still need to charge your battery, so there goes your $6......LOL.

[ChilliBear]

Thanks Tsaphah,

It's pretty difficult to see the diagram though. Any Chance you have a better quality image?

[bigdaddy]

Hi ChilliBear,

A trick I learnt from another member on PAP that could help you is,double click on attachment hold the control button down and hit plus until the image gets larger.I tried it on Tsa's diagram and it worked for me,and my eyes are not as flash as what they used to be.

Cheers.

[Engelvan]

Have you considered an uninterrupible power supply, I am in Aus and purchased a new 1200VA UPS for $98.00AUD. This should keep a small pump running for quite a few hours if the power fails. Nothing like a difference of opinions.

[GaryD]

Hi Engelvan,

Welcome to p+APHQ.


Nothing like a difference of opinions.
We specialise in differences of opinion.

Gary