Grow Beds - Fibre Glass.

[Murray]

I have had an email from yet another member about Fiber Glass Grow beds in regard to their strength and durability.

Fiber Glass is possibly the best man made material to use to construct tanks and grow beds for aquaponic use. (that is not to say that other products are not satisfactory)
Fiber Glass is strong, durable and is chemically stable. No leaching of nasty chemicals.
Fiber Glass is also dimensionally stable, unlike poly which is subject to instability especially in situations of large temp variations.
Fiber Glass is infinitely repairable. Should damage occur Fiber Glass products are easily repairable.

The boating industry has accumulated a large body of information on the durability and stability of fiber glass over 50 plus years intensive use. I personally have refurbished 35 plus year old Australian made glass boats and they are still out there giving great service. I think even the most biased person would have to concede that the operational stresses and strains encountered by a fiber glass boat hull negotiating a seaway, are far in excess of that experienced by a grow bed or fish tank sitting in a greenhouse.

There are now hundreds of my fiber glass grow beds (and dozens of tanks) in service on the east coast of Australia. All are confidently guaranteed.

A poly aquaculture tank.

[fishfood]

Yes i will go along with that 2 of my beds are fiberglass [ex hydro drug crop lift in a trashed house and holes kicked in them] $20.00 fiberglass repair kit [bunnings] and alls well the polly one I had to brace

[sillyoldfart]

Have no reason to suspect either fibreglass or poly tanks or growbeds have any long term detremental effects.

Do you have evidence that this is not the case with the use of UV stabalised poly tanks Murray?

P.S
The attached photo looks suspiciously like a saw cut to me :)

[Murray]

Gee, SOF, I must ask the farmer guy about the "saw cut" perhaps you are onto something there. ;)
Perhaps it is a new "high speed harvesting" technique.:rolleyes: "got to get those fish to market today"
Maybe he just "felt like doing it" :cool:
Maybe he was going to move it out of the shed and it would not fit through the door. :(

SOF, sorry about engaging in such merriment....:D......no, it is not a saw cut, It just plain broke.

Poly is unreinforced and therefore it relies entirely on thickness for strength. Bigger water tanks (from the better manufacturers) are very, very thick especially around the base where most of the pressure is.

The tank in the photograph just was not thick enough to handle the pressure of a full tank of water, I guess.

If we were to make grow beds, especially rectangular ones from poly, they would need to be very well engineered , especially if they needed to withstand the weight etc of ordinary gravel grow media.
It would be far safer to use only "expanded clay balls" or similar in such a grow bed. The media would need to be very light.
Also, It would be almost impossible to make a satisfactory rectangular fish tank of say 2000 ltr capacity, from poly

When we first started making our grow beds and fish tanks we had a few teething problems, until we got it right, so some people got some really cheap grow beds and tanks, VB was one fellow I can remember got some very cheap product.

Obviously round tanks/grow beds are much easier to engineer.

Why do we want to have rectangular tanks and grow beds instead of round ?
It is simple math......more effective use of available space...... and that is important to almost everybody, either domestic or commercial, but especially commercial.

Rectangular fish tanks and possible dead spots in the water flow within the tank.... now, that is another subject altogether.

See photo below of a 600 ltr rectangular poly tank. I still have one of these 600 ltr poly tanks that I use, but I have a steel frame built around it to hold it together. So it turns out to be too expensive an option in the end, the combined cost of the poly tank and the framework to hold it together.

[GaryD]

Hi Silly,

When can we expect some photos of your aquaponics system?

GaryD

[GaryD]

Hi,



Why do we want to have rectangular tanks and grow beds instead of round ?
It is simple math......more effective use of available space...... and that is important to almost everybody, either domestic or commercial, but especially commercial.

Rectangular fish tanks and possible dead spots in the water flow within the tank.... now, that is another subject altogether.



Here's the case for square or rectangular tanks:

They're easier to cover.....and that makes them safer....and it simplifies the task of insulating them. Temperature is arguably the most important of the production parameters.
They are more efficient in their use of space.
They can more readily serve as platforms for other food production systems like grow beds or duckweed tanks.
For as much as 'dead water' might be an issue in large commercial tanks, it is no problem in small aquaculture tank of the type intended for backyard food production. The bottom of my fish tanks is cleaner than most any circular tank I've ever seen.....largely because I can cover them so I don't have a problem with leaves and other wind-borne debris blowing into them.

Gary

[sillyoldfart]

Hi Silly,

When can we expect some photos of your aquaponics system?

GaryD

Just as soon as I have all the bits together. Want to donate one of those you beaut fiber glass tanks or growbeds. :)

Help an old pensioner out :) Or do I need to be one of the inner circle or family to get a freebie? :D

[sillyoldfart]

Why do we want to have rectangular tanks and grow beds instead of round ?
It is simple math......more effective use of available space

Just on this question of space. Doesn't a square tank measuring 1m long by 1m wide take up basically the same space (actually slightly more) as a tank that is 1m in diameter? i.e 1m long by 1m wide???

[GaryD]

Hi Silly,

Pensioner? I thought you were a help-desk operator.

Comparing a 1 metre high X 1 metre diameter round tank with a 1m x 1m x 1m square tank is not comparing apples with apples. The round one holds 785 litres while the square one holds 1000 litres.

On the count of the amount of water that can be stored in a given space, the square tank is a clear winner.....and then there are all of the other benefits, too.

If members would like a very handy calculator for such things......here (http://www.online-calculators.co.uk/volumetric/cylindervolume.php).

GaryD

[sillyoldfart]

Pensioner? I thought you were a help-desk operator.

:eek:How on earth did you get that impression Gary?

As listed in my profile "Retired Research Assistant".

Emphasis on "retired" mate. :)

Yep, obviously the respective height of either a "square" or a round" container will determine the relative capacity.

But I thought we were discussing "space" i.e the footprint area :)

Apples sure aren't oranges, but they're not bananas either lol

As to the amount of water (capacity) you can store in a relative area, then it all depends on the relative height of the respective container surely? The footprint is still the same.

[Murray]

SOF , You have indeed named yourself well. :D
Perhaps we could save a lot of space, a tank of 500mm dia (that is half a metre) diameter and 5 meters high will really save a lot of floor space and still hold 1000 ltrs :p. A low cost ladder could be provided with the tank. :rolleyes:

Of course the footprint matters in relation to capacity, that should be self evident to anyone, (well almost anyone).

[GaryD]

Hi SOF,



But I thought we were discussing "space"


Space is just as much about volume as it is area......but then I thought we were really talking about efficiency.....and the relative merits of round and square tanks.

Gary

[sillyoldfart]

SOF , You have indeed named yourself well. :D
Perhaps we could save a lot of space, a tank of 500mm dia (that is half a metre) diameter and 5 meters high will really save a lot of floor space and still hold 1000 ltrs :p. A low cost ladder could be provided with the tank. :rolleyes:

Of course the footprint matters in relation to capacity, that should be self evident to anyone, (well almost anyone).

Yep, that would be just plain silly, you'd need a scuba set and spear gun or or fishing rod to catch your tea :D

It would be just as silly (but perhaps more practical) to have a "rectangular" tank 5mtrs long but only 500mm wide (no capacity comparisons made or inferred), instead of needing a "tall" greenhouse, you'd need a "long" one :)

Still, like I said, I thought the discussion was merely about the actual footprint area (length and width) not the "volume" space. I never mentioned the height aspect at all.

Point taken concerning relative volumes per footprint in comparison between "square" and "round" tanks occupying the same footprint area.

To return to the main point of the relative or comparative safety aspects.

I assumed that as almost all water storage tanks are manufactured from polyethlyene these days, and are supposedly "foodsafe" that as such there would be no health related concerns.

Murray, you mentioned "leachates" in one of your posts. Is there any known concerns that you are aware of regarding the use of poly tanks in this regard.

Or, putting the space issue to one side, is your preference based more on your personal experience and knowledge of fibreglass?

From what I've seen in looking at current model poly "aquaculture tanks that seem to be almost universally used in modern aquaculture businesses and people supplying to the industry. Any issues relating to strength would have appeared to have been addressed.

The farmers tank you pictured seemed to be extraordinarily thin, more like an aboveground kids swimming pool. Perhaps it was a very cheap and nasty "dodgy brothers" make. But yes, no disputing it was split

[Murray]

Any discussion about space in a greenhouse must take into consideration volume of a given system. It is the primary yardstick for a system.

Poly tanks are fine, but glass ones are better for all the reasons expressed before in this thread and others.

aquaculture tanks that seem to be almost universally used in modern aquaculture businesses and people supplying to the industry
That may appear to be the case, but not really. If you take a good look you will be surprised just how many glass tanks and ancillary equipment is available and used. There is a definite preference for glass because of it's undisputed superiority. The issue is almost always about availability.
It is a whole lot easier, and therefore more profitable to manufacture a tank from poly than from glass.

Anyway, just because something is common does not make it the best, if that were the case none of us would be thinking about aquaponics....we would be growing our veggies in heaps of fertiliser and spraying insecticides all over them.


The farmers tank you pictured seemed to be extraordinarily thin, more like an aboveground kids swimming pool
The tank was not extraordinarily thin, it is actually quite normal. Poly tanks having a bit of a split up is more common than poly tank manufacturers care to admit to. If you were "in the trade" you would hear the stories.

[Martin A1]

G'Day SOF,

If you do have a system or plans for one I would love to see them and share ideas. I am in Berowra and working with a round gal tank arrangement currently.

The arguments for square fibre glass tanks sound quite strong from my perspective/limited experience - putting cost aside. Look around your back yard and you will find straight lines everywhere most likely. Nice straight lines to align a rectangular tank to!

I can't offer you a free fibre glass tank but I would be happy to pay you a visit and help a silly old **** (pensioner) with some free labour for an hour or two... maybe.

Send me a message and put your plans into action so you can post a photo or two and live up to your retired research assistant credentials ;).

It's overdue that I did a surfing/fishing trip up your way anyway so I could pay you a visit.:D

[Murray]

I reckon that once you have been bitten by the bug of AP, just get started. If that means starting with two old bath tubs from the local tip, then do it !!!!!!
You can always upgrade your system later as funds allow, and you have been bitten by the bug.
When you upgrade, buy the best equipment that you can afford, particularly good pumps and aeration equipment , and a backup system,....... don't forget the backup system :)

If you happen to have the spare cash then go for my Homestead kit... (http://www.aquaponics.net.au/category15_1.htm) or something in between, and enjoy.

The MOST important thing is to get started.

Some folk pontificate, ruminate, cogitate and generally blow lots of hot air, but never actually do anything useful. ;).

The joys of growing your own fish and fantastic veggies has to be experienced to be fully appreciated.

[sillyoldfart]

I can't offer you a free fibre glass tank but I would be happy to pay you a visit and help a silly old **** (pensioner) with some free labour for an hour or two... maybe.

Send me a message and put your plans into action so you can post a photo or two and live up to your retired research assistant credentials

Thanks for the offer Martin. Send me a message if you’re ever coming up this way.

Unfortunately I don’t have the facility to message (or do other things) on this forum.

For some strange, unknown and unannounced reason my account has been “moderated”.

Makes even posting and/or editing a post difficult. Haven’t tried pictures, but will below.

Basically I can’t be bothered with what ever silliness is going on that prevents me.


Some folk pontificate, ruminate, cogitate and generally blow lots of hot air, but never actually do anything useful

You’re both right though, pontification is one of my strong points :D.

As a Research Assistant I really only spent many years researching things for other people. I never really had to do anything practical :D

Still I’m not completely hopeless. I do have my soil gardens going well and my small hydroponic greenhouse (see attached photos - if they work).

Hoping eventually to reuse or adapt the hydro setup to aquaponics. I mean to say, they are already setup as "flood and drain" :)


buy the best equipment that you can afford, particularly good pumps and aeration equipment , and a backup system

Here's the sticky point in a nutshell, and the reason I have spent some time researching this whole aquaponics thing. My funds are limited and when I invest in equipment I want to make sure I not only get the best and most reliable stuff for my money but that it will also be cost effective.

At the moment, while I'd perhaps like something like your "Homestead Kit" Murray, or some nice shiny aquaplate tanks and growbeds like yourself Martin, I don't have, for various reasons (like HIH, and another couple of similar bad investments), a lot of all up front funding.

Unfortunately it will be a slow process of gathering pieces overtime.

Anyway here's my little hydro house

[Murray]

Looks like you are growing plants in coco peat SOF ?
How is it going ?
What kind of plants do you have growing ?
The photos are a bit fuzzy but it looks like a tidy little system.

[sillyoldfart]

Looks like you are growing plants in coco peat SOF ?
How is it going ?
What kind of plants do you have growing ?
The photos are a bit fuzzy but it looks like a tidy little system.

Not completely sure Murray.

I initially tried straight cocopeat and a timer & drip feed arrangement. This worked fairly well after some fine tuning. Initially I think I had the timer set to too small a period between "on" cycles.

I subsequently adjusted the timer to longer intervals as the cocopeat was just staying too wet. I think either yourself or Gary have reported a similar experience.

The second year I converted the system to the existing "flood and drain" setup in the photos. Again utilising a timer, but this time with hydroton (expanded clay balls) and initially with a small layer of cocopeat on the top.

Theory being it would minimise evaporation and keep the hydroton from dry out and getting to hot in summer.

The pictures would be of this stage.

System was two 2mtr long 500mm wide 300mm deep beds made from wood and lined with pond liner for lettuce, silver beet, cucumbers and tomatos etc.

The other bed was 500mm deep and was used for rhubarb, carrots, parsnips, beetroot. Root crops basically.

The system now exists as purely hydroton clay balls and I have switched the 300mm and 500mm beds over. The 500mm bed is now used exclusively for Tomatoes.

For what it cost and the return from the effort and experimentation I'd have to say it has yielded surprising results.

Enough to inspire me to establish a much larger hydro system using the "Ell-Gro" channels I discovered some time ago and both yourself and Gary now use.

That was of course until I chanced upon the Gardening Australia segment showing Joel Malcom and his "aquaponics" system.

Being a once keen, but now less adventuress (and less nimble) rock fisherman I've always enjoyed a healthy and frequent seafood component in my diet.

Being that I liked my fish, was a bit iffy about the concept of disposal of spent hydro chemicals and restricted (and heavily policed) in my ability to provide water to my soil gardens, the whole aquaponics idea just seemed a completely natural and holistic idea.

Now all I need is the tanks and other bits and pieces. I had no idea at the start as to the cost of either the tanks or more particularly the plumbing parts.

I'm getting there, slowly, but at times the return I get from little investment in my soil or hydrogardens means that the aquaponics budget becomes more of a "would like to have", rather than a "must have".

Looking around both this and the other aquaponics forums and sites does inspire me though when I see what many people are doing and have acheived.

[GaryD]

Hi SOF,

Lovely to see your photos and to hear how your system works....at last!

Coco peat remains one of the most popular growing media in commercial hydroponics.....particularly in the Netherlands.

From everything I've learned about coco, it requires very small doses of water at semi-frequent intervals.....3 or 4 times per day. Indoor growers, for example, set their run-to-waste systems up so that 10% of the daily total feed runs to drain. Typically, the pump will run for 1 - 2 minutes at a time.

I suggest that coco-peat will have a significant role to play in aquaponics......we just have to fine tune the watering regime.

Gary

[sillyoldfart]

Would seem that the only way to incorporate it would require a "timer" based system.

I'm don't think you could do it running continuous pumps and siphons.

As you say, it takes a significant "drying" period. This in itself can be tricky and requires some seasonal modification to adapt to temperature at the very least.

The other down side perhaps, for "aquaponics" anyway, is the fact that cocopeat, or certainly the coco-coir products I used were quite acidic.

While this is beneficial in hydroponics, it would appear that aquaponics systems have a tendancy toward acidic pH by nature.

Do you think that this will be problematical in terms of utilising coco-coir Gary?

How would you buffer to counteract the inherent pH?

[Murray]

SOF,
I found that the coco peat worked fine except or the very heavy discolouration of the water. I grew a fair crop of carrots some very small spuds and a number of sweet potato. I currently have that bed de-commissioned , have just moved it to a new place in the "work-in-progress" new greenhouse. It has a half dozen beetroot plants in it at present that I water by hand. At this stage I am not sure if I will continue with it when the beetroot are harvested. I might put the coco peat into the "no-dig" garden I am making and revert the bed to good-old reliable gravel.

This is getting a bit off topic, perhaps you should start a thread in Members Systems SOF, now that we have found that you do actually have a AP system. It will be of interest to everyone.
It's about time you "came out" SOF. ;) It's ok...... it really is......you have a lot to contribute.
I heard on the rumour mill that you have a new FG tank to add to your equipment. :D.

[sillyoldfart]

Feel free to move it off into a thread if you can do so Murray. Thanks.


I heard on the rumour mill that you have a new FG tank to add to your equipment

:eek: Don't know where you heard that ! Like most rumours, they're probably not true and the person involved is usually the last to find out.

Maybe some benevolent soul dropped one outside last night, I'll have to go look. Bummer, nope, no fish tank here.

[Martin A1]

Hi SOF,

Great to see you are out of the closset mate! :)

Looks to me like you already have a better set-up than I. You just need an old bath tub (to hold fish) and little pond pump to feed your existing grow beds.... maybe change the grow media to gravel??

Murray please move it to SOF's own system thread. Would like to see this one develop over time....