Friday's AP system

[Frydaze1]

Hi, everyone!

I already had the tank (and one lonely fish) so this weekend I did all the rest of my setup. And since the nitrate levels in the water were already really high, I thought I'd try planting some more mature plants and hope they would help to balance the system. (Then when the nitrates drop low enough, I'll start adding fish). Of course, I'm 75% expecting the plants to die. But it seemed worth a shot. :-)

So here's my system as of Sunday night:
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/2702/systemallhookedup.jpg
And with the plants in it:
http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/4250/plantsin.jpg


When I got up Monday morning, the bell siphon was still working beautifully, the plants were still looking good, the water had cleared up a lot, and everyone was happy.

By the time I got home from work, the siphon wouldn't start. I put in a bit of tubing as a reducer, and increased the water volume a bit, and then it would start but not stop. This morning I drilled a hole in the top of the bell and ran a tube down the side. When I left for work it was behaving itself, but we'll see what it looks like when I get home. lol

[froggo]

Hi Frydaze1,

hey well done.

If your anything like the rest of us when you see the plants grow like crazy you will be extending that system outside.
What type of lighting do you have there?

God bless, froggo

[Frydaze1]

Thanks!

This is just my proof-of-concept. I've already got my backyard spot all picked out. I'm just waiting until next year when my fiance has moved in. He's the gardener in the family. ;)

I've got an LED system on its way. In fact, it should arrive tomorrow! Along with some seeds, since I suspect the plants won't like the way I treated them. (Though they're all still looking pretty healthy, so we'll see.)

My biggest concern right now is that my flood and drain is cycling WAY faster than I want it to. I think it's running at about a 6 minute cycle right now. I'd like to drop it down, but then the siphon doesn't activate. What are the guidelines for optimal cycling?

Thanks for your help!
Fry

[kellenw]

Frydaze1,
Welcome to APHQ! Looks like you are well on your way to developing a nice system.

[froggo]

Hi Frydaze1,

I don't use bell but loop syphons so I don't know the best way to adjust your setup. Maybe someone who uses them will chime in and offer some advice or solution.

God bless, froggo.

[Crusty]

My biggest concern right now is that my flood and drain is cycling WAY faster than I want it to. I think it's running at about a 6 minute cycle right now. I'd like to drop it down, but then the siphon doesn't activate. What are the guidelines for optimal cycling?
Hi Fry

Most put a tap just above their pump so they can slow the flow down to the grow bed by putting most of the water straight back to the fish tank. This seems to be the way most are controlling the speed of the flood and drain. It is interesting your siphon does not activate when you slow it down, must be an air leak somewhere. I doubt there are any optimal guidelines, well none I have heard of. I do know that many are running a 15minute flood cycle, though I would think that would be dependent on the volume of their growbeds and the depth of the siphon.

[Rew]

I have an indoor system with 4 small grow beds that cycle a little faster than yours do Fry. Everything seems to grow well except my green onions, they did better on a timer. Tomatoes, basil, radishes, lettuce even a carrot or two have all grown like crazy.

[Frydaze1]

Thanks, all!
I decided to go to a timer for now. I might mess with the siphon again at a later date, because it's just so cool. ;)
My nitrate level finally went down low enough, so today I added some fish. And used some of the parsley and cilantro in tonight's dinner!

[Ravnis]

Nice job on your first setup.

My first indoor system ran on a 2 minute cycle and did fine for lettuce. The size of your bell in relation to the inner pipe will have the biggest effect on starting and stopping. I found a bell diameter twice the size of the inner pipe to work best. I have a stand pipe that is 1/2" diameter and use a 1 liter coke bottle as the bell.

[Frydaze1]

1 week update
The Nitrates were finally dropping from their unmeasurably high state, and the plants mostly seemed healthy, so I added 5 mollys and 3 algae eaters. The fish are all healthy and happy, but some of my plants started failing. But since I transplanted decent size plants to start with, that might just be unhappiness at having their roots so rudely washed off. Or it might be from the inconsistent watering caused by the malfunctioning siphon. Or it might be lack of light. Or it might be the high PH. Or, or, or...

I've added a LED light system.
I also bought 10 more fish (which is now going to be a problem since the plants are going away... sigh)
I pulled out the miserable lettuce, and I think my cilantro and parsley are going to go next. The tomatoes seem to be doing okay, though there was some burning and yellowing on the leaves. It doesn't seem to have gotten any worse since I put in the timer.
The basil is thrilled. It's ready to take over the planet. If nothing else, I seem to be successful at the expensive plant. lol
I've planted some seeds in rockwool. 50 squares of various herbs. Hopefully those will sprout quickly enough to be transferred to my gb to balance out what may now be excessive fish population.
And now my nitrites seem to be rising. I started out with an existing (and dirty) ft with a high nitrate level, so I didn't think I'd need to wait for all the cycling. But evidently the new gb's are cycling and are in the pre-nitrate phase. I hope they get through it quickly!

[Frydaze1]

Hey folks. I had planted a bunch of seeds in rockwool, and the hydroponics guys said that I could put the squares directly into the growbeds. And THEY said it wouldn't hurt the fish. But I'm learning that experts on one side of the aqua/ponics equation seldom know anything about the other side.

So can I please get an opinion from the people here who actually DO know aquaponics?

TIA!

[Rew]

Rockwool won't hurt your fish, but it does have a rather high ph, and its recommended to soak it in a low ph water before using. I use a spoonful of vinegar in my water here before soaking them. I have used them without soaking, and to be honest it didn't matter for the tomatoes. Perhaps some plant types wouldn't like the high PH as much.

[Crusty]

From a fish point of view, no issue at all with rockwool as Rew has said. It is just rocks with some starch binders.

[GaryD]

Hi Fri,



But I'm learning that experts on one side of the aqua/ponics equation seldom know anything about the other side.


An interesting observation from someone so new to the craft.......and a worthwhile one from the point of view of anyone contemplating a commercial operation.

I'm frequently amused at how some people actually believe that the combination of aquaculture and hydroponics somehow makes the need for knowledge about either, superfluous.

Gary

[Frydaze1]

Rockwool won't hurt your fish, but it does have a rather high ph, and its recommended to soak it in a low ph water before using. I use a spoonful of vinegar in my water here before soaking them. I have used them without soaking, and to be honest it didn't matter for the tomatoes. Perhaps some plant types wouldn't like the high PH as much.

The hydroponics guy had told me to douse the rockwool with boiling water prior to using it, so hopefully that helps. But since I didn't lower their PH before using them, I'll be sure to transplant with some vinegar water (which I'm already dosing with for my high PH). I was mostly worried because the rockwool feels like fiberglass to me the way I always have to wash after touching it or my fingers feel prickly. So I was worried they would shed fibers into the water that would irritate the fish.

Hopefully soon I'll learn to come here and ask questions *before* trying something, instead of thinking of all the potential consequences afterward. ;)



I'm frequently amused at how some people actually believe that the combination of aquaculture and hydroponics somehow makes the need for knowledge about either, superfluous.

Well all the hype makes it sound like the symbiotic relationship between the fish and the plants takes care of most of the technical aspects for you, and you just have to keep the fish fed.


Thanks, guys, for your help!

[Frydaze1]

I'm fighting high PH, and I have to believe it's the rockwool. I keep getting it down around 6.4 and 24 hours later it's almost to 8 again. I can't think that using this much vinegar in the system is good for it, aside from it not holding long enough to be worth it.

So I think I'll pull out all of the rockwool cubes and soak them, seedlings and all, in vinegar water. I think I'll just manually do soak and drain all day tomorrow so they get enough air and water. Meanwhile, I'll change 1/2 the fishtank water, get it down to 6.8ish where I want it, and monitor it to see if it stays stable without the rockwool. If so, I'll try putting the soaked cubes back in and see if I've stabilized them enough.

If that doesn't work, I'll try to pull the seedlings out of the rockwool and plant them directly in the hydroton, if I can get them out without damaging them too badly.

And if THAT doesn't work, I'll seed directly and start from scratch.

I'm glad I started small. It would be devastating to me to learn all this stuff on a big system.

[Crusty]

Check your alkalinity (KH). You can get little kits for that at the aquarium shop.

[Frydaze1]

Okay, explain alkalinity to me, please. I thought it was simply the high end of PH, meaning the opposite of acidity.

[Crusty]

Okay, explain alkalinity to me, please. I thought it was simply the high end of PH, meaning the opposite of acidity.It does get a little confusing with some people referring to the "Base" end of the pH scale as "Alkaline". Without going into it, Alkalinity helps prevent pH swings like the ones you are having. You will find you have little or no alkalinity.

[Frydaze1]

Okay then. How do I increase the alkalinity of my system without increasing the pH?

[Privatteer]

Friday, do you have any stone as well in your system or just the rockwool? If you do you might have some limestone in it pushing up the PH.

Best to test first, but you need a buffer to increase alkalinity.
Sodium Bicarbonate or Calcium carbonate are 2 that I know of that are commonly used but far as I am aware both will tend to equalize in the high 7's

[Frydaze1]

Friday, do you have any stone as well in your system or just the rockwool? If you do you might have some limestone in it pushing up the PH.

I'm running rockwool with expanded clay in the growbeds. And some aquarium gravel in bottom of the fishtank. Nothing else.



Best to test first, but you need a buffer to increase alkalinity.
Sodium Bicarbonate or Calcium carbonate are 2 that I know of that are commonly used but far as I am aware both will tend to equalize in the high 7's

I certainly have baking soda here. But, yes, that will bring up the pH, won't it. And I don't really want it in the high 7's.


EDIT: Actually, if I DID want it there, I could leave the system alone since that's where it wants to stabilize already.

[Rew]

Hello Fridaze,

My indoor system ran much better when I finally got rid of the aquarium gravel. Tank is cleaner and the plants grew better.

[Crusty]

Simply test the alkalinity first, then we can talk about adjusting it, if needs be. Do not use Sodium bicarb.

[Frydaze1]

I'm stuck at home today with a strained back muscle, so I'm not touching anything anyway. But I'll get an alkaline test kit tomorrow and let you know where we are. Thanks for your help.