Friday's AP system

[GaryD]

Hi Fridaze,

Stop feeding until you can confirm that the fish are dead or alive.

Get the water moving through your system quicker......and change water if you need to.......so that you can determine what's happening as quickly as possible - so that you can net any fish that are dead......and save any that are still alive.

Gary

[Frydaze1]

I've stopped feeding.

I've got my 370 GPH pump running at full bore 15 minutes out of every hour. I've got about 400 gallons total between FT and sump. Maybe that's insufficient? After all, I'm not running all the water through every hour. But then, I was filtering a lot less for the first few months until I got everything situated.

Yes, I think you're right about the water change. Unfortunately I leave home just after dawn and get home just before dark. I hope anyone who's left can survive until Saturday. I don't see any way to deal with it before then.

If I increase the flow time, the GB won't have time to drain... but then it's mostly lettuce right now. That could probably survive more flooding. Or I could flood longer before draining. Perhaps I should go to 45 on 45 off until Saturday? That would still allow for a complete drain every 1.5 hours. Or should I go even longer? It's only a few days - the lettuce could probably survive it.

I appreciate the input.

[GaryD]

Since this is something of an emergency, I'd suggest that you suspend the flood and drain stuff and just let your system flow continuously. If it turns out that this doesn't suit your lettuce you can simply replant more. The important thing, at this stage, is to get the system right for fish.

If you can get more air into the system that would be helpful, too.

[Frydaze1]

Okay. I've got an airstone already. The water flows from the sump into the FT without providing much aeration IMO... something else I'll need to work on at some point. Meanwhile I just got home and came straight here to read your answer... so now I'll go out and put it on continuous flow. Thanks!

[Frydaze1]

All is (was) not lost!

Saturday I drained a large percentage of the water, only to discover that there were some big fish doing just fine down there. I seem to have only killed the little fish. Because of that (though please correct me if I'm mistaken) I suspect that my biggest problem was water temperature. All the water tests were fine, but the temp was down around 57F.

I had purchased a bucket heater and a temperature control, but cannot hook them together without a more skilled electrician than I (I'm waiting for a call back from one). But meanwhile I plugged the heater into the timer that is running the pump. So it's 15 on, 45 off. As of this morning the temp is up to about 62F. But we had a warm weekend, and now it's cooling again. So I suspect it's going to continue to rise very, very slowly. But that's all I can do right now safely. I don't want to run it full bore while I'm off at work for 11 hours. I'm afraid I'd come back to boiled fish. My goal temp is probably around 70F. Opinions? But we're headed back into the punishing heat that Southern California is known for, so I suspect I'll only need to run the heater for another month or two and then unplug it until September or October. As long as I keep an eye on it, this 15 on / 45 off cycle should hold me until then if I can't get a competent person lined up.

But meanwhile...
I have fish! (I'm so relieved)

Thanks again for your help.

[Frydaze1]

Hi everyone. An update and a question.

Update
Things are going well in the system. I haven't yet gotten the heater hooked to the control, but I've been plugging it in directly and keeping an eye on the temperature. It increases about 3 degrees a day, so I unplug it for a day when it reaches 75F or so. It's disturbing how much electricty it's taking to keep the water warm enough. Our weather is usually much warmer by now. Hopefully it will do better in the next few months. Meanwhile I've been researching passive, thermo-siphon solar water heating. I am starting to suspect that with a nice, black hose from my local hardware store, and a little bit of framework to hold it in the right position, I can probably warm the water quite a bit without spending the electricity to do it. I'll be looking into that over the next month.
The plants and fish are all fairly happy. The pH is still higher than I want (a problem I always had in the indoor system also), and I'm treating with distilled vinegar in the rear sump tank (that water mixes with incoming water from the GB and flows through a 1 1/2" pipe into the front sump where it is pumped to the FT - so there's lots of time/space for it to dilute before hitting the tank, and even more before hitting the plants/bacteria). It's running around 8.1 and the plants are a paler green than I'd like to see. Unfortunately I'm having to top up the water every couple of weeks, and my incoming water is way too high. So I'm trying to figure out how to decrease evaporation-loss and perhaps pre-treat the water to decrease the pH before topping up the system.
We've been eating lettuce and pak choi out of the system. The cilantro (coriander) is growing well, the cucumber has finally sprouted and put out leaves, the swiss chard (silver beet?) is up and a little pale but otherwise looking strong, and the tomatoes are doing their best to take over the earth.
As the weather warms up I'm hoping to have time to split my 55gal drums into half barrels and run a row of those down the side of the greenhouse, using the same pump and sumps. I'm seriously considering putting the tomato plants in those. They'll be down a little lower for easier reach, and their tendency toward large root balls will be better contained. But unfortunately the sides of the greenhouse have a lower ceiling, which will make my existing tomato frames unusable. But I'll work that out.
I also want to hang some towers over the FT for the sump to flow into. I'm not sure my pump has the head for that, but I might try. That, or run some NFT pipes over the tank. I'd like to grow lettuce that way and leave the growbed for other items.

Question
The only other real problems I have are aphids on the lettuce, and a rusty rash on some of the tomato leaves. I believe I'm not supposed to put onions or garlic in a AP system, but all the organic aphid repellants recipies I can find are based on those. Ladybugs might work, of course, but it's an awfully small greenhouse and I don't think they'd stay or thrive in there. My fiance tells me it's the ants that herd the aphids (though I haven't seen many ants in there) so perhaps what I really need is an ant repellant? I knew others here must have dealt with this problem, so I thought I'd come ask the experts. :-)

Thanks for any help!

[dan0178]

You could use white oil. It's simply 4 parts of vegetable oil to one part of dish-washing detergent. Mix it together really well. It will turn milky when mixed. Dilute 1:50 with water for use, spraying leaves from above and below. Works great on aphids and other things.

I use this in my conventional vegetable garden. You might have to be careful using it with aquaponics. The detergent you use might effect the fish if it gets into the water. Although it is in very small quantities once you dilute it. Someone else might be able to shed more light on that.

[GaryD]

Hi Dano,

I'd caution against putting anything containing detergent near fish. While you'll get away with it in a vegetable garden, it will probably prove toxic to aquatic organisms.

Gary

[Frydaze1]

Hi Dano,

I'd caution against putting anything containing detergent near fish. While you'll get away with it in a vegetable garden, it will probably prove toxic to aquatic organisms.

Gary

Thank you, Gary. Can you recommend something safer for aphid control in AP?

[GaryD]

Hi Frydaze,

You can wash the affected areas off with a stream of water......and try removing affected foliage from the greenhouse.

Gary

[Pseudoreality]

I plan to build a solar water heater for my system as last year my goldfish pond never even got into the double digits (C). So I'll be interested in how you make out. I'm not sure if its going to be passive, active, direct or indirect. Pluses and minus to all. Are you concerned about any chemical leachate from you black hose if you go for direct heating? My plan was to build the solar collector using PEX pipe painted black, but I noticed the warning labels stating not to store in direct sunlight.

[Frydaze1]

Are you concerned about any chemical leachate from you black hose if you go for direct heating?

Hmmm... I was thinking of using the slick black hose from the hydroponic store, thinking it was most likely to be food safe etc. under various conditions, and be sturdy enough for what I want to do. (I've thought about it a bit more since my prior post where I was thinking garden hose.) But to be honest I hadn't really thought of the direct sun changing the conditions sufficiently to concern me. Do you know where I could get specific information about the risks at various temperatures? And even with the garden hose, mine sits out in the sun all the time and I still drink out of it. Is that something I'm supposed to worry about? (Not sarcastic, just ignorant.)

[Pseudoreality]

I'm not sure what that "slick black hose" from the hydroponics store is. Lots of kids drink water out of garden hoses (myself included) and grow-up healthy. However, unless the hose or pipe is approved for potable water use there's a chance that there's a certain amount of compounds that are not that great for you. Its one of those good, better, best things when choosing pipe materials. If I'm building something for someone else (i.e. water treatment plants), I make sure testing has been done on all products used to make sure they are safe.

That being said, I'm leaning towards using the PEX pipe. PEX pipe is PE pipe that has been cross-linked to handle high temps. The only issue is it hasn't been UV stabilized. Now you can get HDPE pipe that has been UV stabilized using something called carbon black. I wonder if its possible to get PEX pipe stabilized with carbon black? That would be idea.

[Frydaze1]

I'm not sure what that "slick black hose" from the hydroponics store is.

This:
http://www.igrowhydro.com/detail.aspx?ID=6783

[keith_r]

nothing wrong with garlic or onions in the gb.. i have garlic chives, green onions..

i've used a "recipe" of chilli powder, garlic, cayenne pepper (simmered for a half hour).. didn't cause any harm to the fish, but i don't think it was strong enough,,
i got ladybugs from home depot (mail order only, 1500 for something like 15 dollars) put them out in the early evening after giving everything a good misting,, many will stick around and mate, and ladybug larvae eat aphids too...

[Pseudoreality]

This:
http://www.igrowhydro.com/detail.aspx?ID=6783

That may work. It's says it holds up to heat and UV. I wonder if I can find something similar around here.

[ecosystem]

"Stays strong in heat", doesn't mean that it is food grade or potable water (NSF 61) rated - all food grade plastic has to be white in the US. Of course, just because it is white doesn't mean that it is food grade! One thing you might consider is running water across a pane of glass that is painted black on the back(non-water side), or painting any of your plumbing or sumps with a dark paint. A thermo siphon is a great idea, but getting a heat exchanger to work without adding any metallic parts, unless stainless, is an interesting proposition. As with anything, start small, or you might find that you overheat your system, and end up having to cool it. Obviously, don't create any super hot water that flows directly into your fish tanks.

I'm working with a friend on getting a system started in West Los Angeles. Are you anywhere nearby?

[Frydaze1]

"Stays strong in heat", doesn't mean that it is food grade or potable water (NSF 61) rated

And yet this tubing is the standard in hydroponic systems, which are primarily for growing food.




all food grade plastic has to be white in the US.

Really? Because the food grade 55 gallon barrels are often blue or green, aren't they?



A thermo siphon is a great idea, but getting a heat exchanger to work without adding any metallic parts, unless stainless, is an interesting proposition. As with anything, start small, or you might find that you overheat your system, and end up having to cool it. Obviously, don't create any super hot water that flows directly into your fish tanks.

I'm manually turning it on and off. It doesn't heat 450 gallons of water so quickly that it gets away from me.




I'm working with a friend on getting a system started in West Los Angeles. Are you anywhere nearby?

Yes, I'm a little more than an hour away.

[ecosystem]

And yet this tubing is the standard in hydroponic systems, which are primarily for growing food. Strange, isn't it. Obviously it is fine for plants and possibly fish. It is not rated for potable water, which means it could contain certain chemicals that are dangerous to one's health. I'm not saying it does, but it could.


Really? Because the food grade 55 gallon barrels are often blue or green, aren't they?
Oops, "food grade" means that the plastic is held to higher standards than normal - it doesn't have to be white, but often times is. If you want to see some legalese from the FDA [/URL] or [URL="http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodIngredientsPackaging/FoodContactSubstancesFCS/ucm093435.htm"] (http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodIngredientsPackaging/FoodContactSubstancesFCS/default.htm)

Who writes that stuff!

[ecosystem]

And yet this tubing is the standard in hydroponic systems, which are primarily for growing food. Strange, isn't it. Obviously it is fine for plants and possibly fish. It is not rated for potable water, which means it could contain certain chemicals that are dangerous to one's health. I'm not saying it does, but it could.


Really? Because the food grade 55 gallon barrels are often blue or green, aren't they?
Oops, "food grade" means that the plastic is held to higher standards than normal - it doesn't have to be white, but often times is. If you want to see some legalese from the FDA http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodIngredientsPackaging/FoodContactSubstancesFCS/default.htm

Who writes that stuff!

[Frydaze1]

So are you saying that vegetables grown hydroponically using standard hydroponic equipment aren't safe to eat? Or are you just telling me that since I'm using it I can no longer drink my fishtank water if I get the insane urge to do so?