1st ever post! please help with filter and setup feasibility test!

[aquapoolman]

Hey Everybody!! I am so excited to be apart of the network! I know that it will take me months and months yet of reading until I ask the REAL important questions. Nevertheless, I am designing and drawing up plans for my Aquaponics Set up and could use experienced builders advice. Bear in mind its a lengthy read and I have not yet added pictures. If you take the time to read it all and comment, I greatly appreciate it!

Here is the dream:

Imagine at the heart of the system and the highest ground elevation, 4 x 3,000-gallon fish tanks producing hopefully 12-15000 lbs of Tilapia fish per year. Situated but 6 meters from these tanks, slightly downhill on a flattened area are 4 concrete rectangles of identical size in parallel, connected to one another like so: incoming from fishtanks north side of Box1, South side box 1 connected with south side box 2, north side box 2 connected with north side box3 etc...
Each box outfitted with valves to completely shutoff or control flow rate. The first is the solid waste remover, the second is the biofilter, the third is degassing, the fourth is undecided possibly for growing duckweed, or used for filter system expansion later.

I wonder what capacity these tanks should be cumulatively, compared with the 9,000 gallons of fish tank water and unkown amount of hydroponic sump and possibly other tank water?

Ill discuss the construction of this filter in a little more detail. The rectangular box is for solid waste removal and is constructed with a sloping bottom lengthwise (maybe 10-20degrees), to ensure constant flow. A PVC pipe, runs the length of the rectangle and is cut in half horizontally, sunken into the bottom of the box in the center, with sloping sides, to easily allow solid waste particles to settle within. Imagine side view looks like this \u/ , though the "u" would be sunk down to the bottom. This pipe leads to a drain which removes sludge with the turn of a valve.

After water passes through this box it continues on to box #2, also sloping to ensure good water flow. It contains bioballs, fishnet, or biological material. Water then continues onto the third box which is filled with airstones for degassing. The final chamber can be used to grow duckweed to feed the fish, or used as another filter compartment if needed due to expansion. It can also be used as a place to adjust PH or other parameters.

Water, once passed through this filter and hopefully clean, will run downhill again and fill a tank of undetermined capacity with filtered water, which will help to regain lost pressure for the home stretch. It will also operate as a failsafe in the event of power outage (explained later on).

Sunken slightly downhill from here are the hydroponics part, 6 long rectangles parallel, slightly sunken underground, which utilize the floating raft method. They are operate like so: box 1 has the input from the filtered water reservoir on the North side and the south side of box 1 is connected to the south side of box 2. The north side of box 2, 4, and 6 run downhill again to the sump tank possibly 3,000 gallons (really dont know yet) and returns water with a heavy duty pump, through individual lines back to each original fish tank.

The consideration for a rectangular filter tank is based on the fact that I will already be pouring concrete and feel like my design will provide superior water treatment vs cylinder clarifier tanks. Everything is gravity fed from the main fish tanks, through the filter stages with the help of sloped bottoms, to the filtered water reservoir and even through the hydroponic raft beds all the way into the sump. Note: Additional pumps to aid in flow and aeration will be placed in the hydroponic tanks as well as other strategic places.

In the event of a power outage a gravity fed system can literally drain all the fish water from the tanks. My only solution to this problem thus far is the addition of the filtered water reservoir, let me explain. In addition to the sump pumping water back to the original fish tanks, it will also have a pump run on solar and/or wind power which in the event of a power outage is designed to keep the hydroponic system flowing. From the filtered water tank through the hydro system, to the sump and back to the filtered water reservoir. Solar and Wind energy may also drive the aeration devices in the fish tanks, providing them with a longer survival time in the case if power outage.

My only real problem now is deciding if this filter design has the capacity to treat the water effectively.

My other option would be to change to a raised cylinder tank design with cone shaped bottom, to remove solids. Either way I am in the planning stages and have not yet even purchased the land. Of course, there are design factors which play into geographical ones, climate and whatnot but im trying to leave most of these elements out until my basic design concept is analyzed.

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated! I hope to upload a couple of pictures of my design, just to help in understanding some of the concepts, since my rambling is usually incoherent to everybody BUT me!

Thanks again if you are still here with me!!

Yours,

- Jacob M. Brettler

[GaryD]

Hi Jacob,

Welcome to APHQ.

While it's commendable that you are thinking about your own system, if I were planning an aquaponics installation on that scale, I'd mirror the UVI system.....or perhaps the Friendly Aquaponics (in Hawaii) model.

Both are already proven......and, for design purposes......a good starting point.

Since you are in Toronto, I'd be thinking about a greenhouse to house it all in. Fortunately, you have one of the leading exponents of greenhouse aquaponics already working in Canada.....at Alberta. His name is Dr Nick Savidov.

Gary

[arachdog]

Hi Jacob,
Welcome, that's an impressive first post! I like a man with ambition.


In the event of a power outage a gravity fed system can literally drain all the fish water from the tanks.

What you need is an overflow design, they are tough to beat at keeping the water in when the pump stops.
There's actually a lot of aspects of your system I think I (and others I'm sure) can help you improve, but to be honest I'm interested in seeing your pictures before I say much more. Its fascinates me to see how people go about things when they haven't got any preconceived ideas.

[aquapoolman]

Thank you for the quick replies!

Gary, I have considered design elements from the UVI system and can honestly say that I have spent many hours staring at their schematics.

I very much appreciate your link to Dr. Savidov!! One important detail that perhaps I failed to mention is the system will most likely be implemented in the tropical climate of the Philippines! On the bright side this means setup costs and construction costs are reduced as well as no winter = more harvests per year! On the downside, the reduction of setup costs will be matched with the reduction of profits as 45 PHP peso is equivalent to roughly 1 US dollar. Nevertheless, the production and yields for the little space this system uses should command profitable returns year after year and possibly early retirement! It will also (depending on the location) serve to provide fresh produce and fish to remote communities without the means for production.

Yes its true, arachdog, I am not even a fingerling myself in the game, but the way I envision the system operating without any preconceived notions or bias could be at times slightly entertaining. I will make sure to finish some rough drawings and get them online as soon as possible. Overflow design is something I am not familiar with. Neither is the practicality of a mostly gravity fed system. I'm glad that you are willing to help with advice on improving aspects of my system!!

Thanks again for the replies,

I will certainly report back in with some rough drawings and sketches.

- JMB

[francois]

[QUOTE = Yes its true, arachdog, I am not even a fingerling myself in the game, but the way I envision the system operating without any preconceived notions or bias could be at times slightly entertaining.


aquapoolman
just thinking

you must walk the walk to be able to talk the talk

you have to start somewhere.

we all started from scratch

good luck

[GaryD]

Hi aquapoolman,


One important detail that perhaps I failed to mention is the system will most likely be implemented in the tropical climate of the Philippines!
That will make your life in aquaponics much easier.......and the UVI and Hawaiian models much more relevant........than if you'd planned to do it in Canada.

Arachdog........what is an "overflow design?"

Gary

[fishfood]

I reckon CHOP

[arachdog]

I'm sure its nothing you haven't seen before Gary. In its simplest form its spout on the side of the tank where the water overflows. If you want to have the drain at the bottom of the tank then you just run the pipe externally upto the height you want to maintain and have it overflowing into a larger diameter pipe than can safely drain the flow away without backing up.
Yeah CHOP is basically what I'm talking about, FF.

[GaryD]

Hi,


I'm sure its nothing you haven't seen before Gary. In its simplest form its spout on the side of the tank where the water overflows. If you want to have the drain at the bottom of the tank then you just run the pipe externally upto the height you want to maintain and have it overflowing into a larger diameter pipe than can safely drain the flow away without backing up.
I had trouble picturing this, but if it's CHOP (or CHIFT PIST) that you're talking about than I understand. That's the way the UVI system is set up.

Gary

[aquapoolman]

Hey all! I am interested in hearing more about this overflow protection aka "chop". Is it an acronym?

Well I am terrible with a ruler and pencil, so I tried with MS paint. Hope it brings things into perspective. I keep thinking about tank sizes, flow rates, sump size its overwhelming!

The first thing I need to determine is the validity of the tank in between the filter and the hydroponics.

Any suggestions on where to start?

Thanks again,

- Jacob M. B

[arachdog]

Yes its true, arachdog, I am not even a fingerling myself in the game, but the way I envision the system operating without any preconceived notions or bias could be at times slightly entertaining.

I wasn't suggesting it was going to be entertaining. I was genuinly interested. Quite often people coming at something from another field find a better way to do something because they didn't know the 'right' way.



Hey all! I am interested in hearing more about this overflow protection aka "chop". Is it an acronym?

Yep, Constant Height, One Pump.

Your pictures didn't come out that well, I can't make out any of your labels. One thing I noticed is that if the settling tank is your only means of solids removal I think it needs to be a LOT bigger. If your expecting solids to settle there prefferentially then you have to allow the flow to slow significantly. It practically has to be your biggest tank. Personally I would advise you look into an actual mechanical filter of some description. I'm sure you can build something to do the same job as your settling tank but much cheaper and with a smaller footprint.

[GaryD]

Hi aquapoolman,

In a basic CHOP system, the water drains from the fish tank into the growing system (often flood and drain grow beds).....and then into a sump tank. The pump is located in the sump and it lifts the water from the sump tank back into the fish tank......which displaces water which drains into the growing system......and so on.

One of the advantages of the CHOP arrangement is that, if the pump stops for any reason, the fish tank will remain full of water. Having a full tank will help to offset the impact of equipment failure......particularly if you have good aeration and (even better still) a backup pump system.

Where the growing system is either nutrient film technique (NFT) or deep water cycle (DWC - aka raft), mechanical filtration will usually be installed between the fish tank and the growing system.

In my view, the installation of mechanical filtration (and supplementary bio-filtration) makes for a safer and more productive aquaponics unit.....regardless of the type of growing system.

Gary

[aquapoolman]

hey all thanks for the replies!

sorry for the lousy pictures, it seems the website resized them!?

arachdog, I knew what you meant! It was me who suggested that my ignorance may provide some of you with entertainment.

Gary, wouldn't a chop system require water to be taken from the waters surface? If so, then additional means of water movement would be needed in the fish tanks to ensure suspended and solid particles at the bottom of the tank could be brought to the surface for filtration?

Couldn't a smaller clarifier be used if the fish tanks were cone shaped on the bottom and the water was drained from there?

try these links and click see full size :

http://homecleaningservicetoronto.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=74134295
http://homecleaningservicetoronto.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=74135395
http://homecleaningservicetoronto.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=74135396

[arachdog]

http://i811.photobucket.com/albums/zz31/arachdog/aqua.jpg

This is the arrangment of my setup thought it's missing the pump in the bottom of the biofilter that returns the water to the tank. But you can see the overflow arrangment which I believe is basically no different to CHOP. The standpipe in the center of the tank also has a drain at the base so by adjusting the height of the standpipe you can actually get water to flow out of the tank from both the tank bottom and water surface.

[aquapoolman]

Thanks for the diagram, its much nicer than mine haha. I dare not try to draw bio balls.
In any case you mentioned a drain at the bottom, so if you adjust the height of the intake tube it exposes the drain and allows water to exit through the bottom. I can't quite conceptualize this, unless you mean literally lifting up the draining pipe, but then, how can the water drain from both top of tank and bottom of tank at the same time??

Is the yellow block thing a media filter as well? What type of media is inside??

- Aquapoolman

[arachdog]

No, the you dont move the standpipe. The bottom drain is actually holes in the side of the standpipe. You try and size the holes at the bottom to take away about half the flow then the remainder goes down the top of the standpipe.

No, the yellow thing is a rotating screen filter.

[aquapoolman]

Interesting. So could this work: there are two pipes, one inserted into the other and using venturi principles as you adjust the height of the tube, the holes in the sides either open up or close?


If the standpipe in the center has holes in the sides, how do you prevent overflow of the fish tank?

[aquapoolman]

I made a mistake haha, how do you prevent all the water from draining the fish tank?

[arachdog]

Its external part of the pipe that sets the tank level. You don't even need the standpipe in the tank unless you also want to also draw water from the water surface.

[GaryD]

Hi,


This is the arrangment of my setup thought it's missing the pump in the bottom of the biofilter that returns the water to the tank. But you can see the overflow arrangment which I believe is basically no different to CHOP.

It's only a CHOP system once it has a growing system hanging off it. CHOP is an aquaponics acronym.

Your arrangement is very similar to the aquaculture side of my Queenslander design.....except for the rotating screen mechanical filter and the fish tank drain which, in most CHOP systems, exits through the fish tank wall (near the top) and draws from the bottom ..........since that's where the solids are.

While I liked the overhead trickling bio-filter arrangement, I'm tending toward a Moving Bed filter located in the sump tank itself. In fact, the entire sump tank will be a Moving Bed bio-filter.

Gary

[arachdog]

the fish tank wall (near the top) and draws from the bottom ..........since that's where the solids are.

There reason for drawing from the surface as well is to keep it free of floating scum. That allows the water surface to transfer more oxygen. I haven't really worked out the relative flows, it may well end up being better to have majority flowing from the bottom. I went for a center drain for the improved tank access and less flow resistance compared to a side entry design.



While I liked the overhead trickling bio-filter arrangement, I'm tending toward a Moving Bed filter located in the sump tank itself. In fact, the entire sump tank will be a Moving Bed bio-filter.

Yeah I can see the advantage of that design with regards to maintenance, but I think the efficiency advantages of a trickle filter still just out weigh that benefit. But its a close one. I'm hoping my 50um screen filter will keep the bio-filter clean for quite a while. But I guess its still going to need cleaning eventually.

[aquapoolman]

Seems to me there are so many different types of setups available for every single aspect of a system, this may be more difficult than I imagined. In light of this, I have decided to start with the fish tank. I need to determine which shape, intake and return locations make the most amount of sense for these tanks. Firstly from overflow protection, but also for draining protection. Secondly taking into account maintaining great flow rates and removing waste from top middle and bottom locations to ensure removal of solid wastes, and finally, something that is easy to clean and maintain. I'm heading to the drawing board and when I create a tank which can satisfy these concerns, I shall return :)

Let the quest for the perfect fish tank design begin!

[GaryD]

Hi Jacob,


Let the quest for the perfect fish tank design begin!
The perfect fish tank is the one that lets grow the largest number of fish........in the smallest amount of water.....using the minimum of electricity.........in the greatest safety.......for the least amount of money......with the shortest possible set up time.

If we've allowed you to become confused, we've done you a disservice.

The simplest aquaponics system requires nothing more than a fish tank (a rubbermaid tote) a grow bed or two........and a small submersible pump.

Position the grow bed(s) in such a way that the water drains directly back into the fish tanks. In this system, the pump is located in the fish tank.

Get your system cycled and then add some plants and a few fish.

Get something like this happening while you ponder the art and mystery of aquaponics. You can add the finishing touches to this little unit......like a simple means of removing some solids.....and a separate trickling bio-filter.....as you go.

Most importantly, buy a freshwater test kit......and learn the fundamentals of water quality management.

You'll learn more from your direct experience of a small system like this than from anywhere else......and you'll be eating fresh salads while your fish grow and you consider what the ideal system might look like.

Gary

[GaryD]

Hi Arachdog,


There reason for drawing from the surface as well is to keep it free of floating scum. That allows the water surface to transfer more oxygen.
I've built and operated ten backyard aquaponics/aquaculture systems......and seen dozens more.......and I've never seen scum floating on the surface of any of them.


..........but I think the efficiency advantages of a trickle filter still just out weigh that benefit.
As much as I like trickling bio-filters, they are not more efficient than a moving bed filter.

You've stated elsewhere that your goal is to build a recirculating aquaculture system (as distinct from an aquaponics system). While I don't think that one is necessarily exclusive of the other, if that's your goal, then everything you need (in terms of technology) is already there.

My advice to you is the same as that I've just provided to Jacob.

Put a small RAS together....buy yourself a test kit.....and let experience drive your development of a better system. A few months of practical experience will stand you in much better stead than years of theorising.

Gary

[aquapoolman]

I appreciate you bringing me back down to earth Gary!

You are right, in every aspect, I am just trying to think big.

I get your point, in your eyes, aquaponics is about maximizing your resources, to create a system which costs less and operates cheaper and more efficient. I can definitely respect that.

I guess there is a fine line which I need to find, where I can be satisfied that my system is reaching its full potential. I am familiar with water parameters and water testing as I have owned and operated 4 freshwater and 1 saltwater aquarium successfully for years. In my home aquariums though I change the intake and return lines and constantly play with the water flow direction, to try and find the best and most efficient possible combination. With my Aquaponics system, I will not have that luxury.

I want a setup which will satisfy my creative and innovative side too. You are very lucky Gary, to have so much field experience. You know what kind of systems are out there and what many people are using. are there any federations, councils, coalitions or clubs (this web forum aside) which link aquaponic participants together??