Red Wigglers

[evan]

I've started a vermicomposting (http://home.howstuffworks.com/vermicomposting1.htm) bin and got the idea to feed the worms to my fish.

Has anyone tried this?

[Ravnis]

I've found it's just easier to just through them in the growbed. The worms that you raise are really worth a lot more as worms to gardeners than they are as fish food, but it does make you more sustainable.

[evan]

They were only three dollars at the bait shop. I think that they are red wigglers:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_aOxtVgEOxqE/S0V9PYTO4mI/AAAAAAAADgU/NaTBmrzlhRI/s640/P1060036.JPG

As they reproduce I may just take some from the compost and supplementally feed to the fish as a treat.

I don't really want them crawling out of my hydroton as my setup is indoors... :eek:

[GaryD]

Hi Evan,

If they are red wrigglers, they are compost worms and I don't think they can survive for long outside of an organic food source. At worst, they might leave your systema and attempt to leg it outside.....to a bigger food source.

Gary

[evan]

I think I'll keep them in my compost bin and out of the grow bed for now. Can anyone ID those worms? They look similar to the pictures of red wigglers I've seen, just not sure - the container was labeled big reds.

[fishfood]

Do your self a favour and stick a few in one of your grow beds [they will do more good than bad]

[Ravnis]

Those are most likely Eisenia Hortensis if you bought them from a bait shop, Especially if they were from DF farms. They look like the "pan trout" worms I had bought from Wal-mart in the sporting goods section a year ago.

I have two systems and one is indoors. I put worms in it over 6 months ago. THey stay there. As long as you have good aeration and fish in the system they will work wonders there and help prevent clogs in your growbeds. This will inturn help you prevent from the growbeds overflowing onto the living room floor(or wherever you have your system). I haven't seen them go in the plumbing so you will have to keep that cleared out as needed. This system is now a year old and putting worms have done nothing, except be beneficial with solids control.

[GaryD]

Hi evan,

If the experience of most other aquaponicists holds true in your situation, you may find that worms will eventually occupy your grow beds regardless of where the grow beds are and whether you put them in there or not.

I'm with FF and Ravnis.......they'll only bring a benefit. Their numbers tend to match the availability of food in the grow bed so they self-regulate. My experience of worms is that they only leave a food source if the conditions are no longer to their liking.

Gary

[evan]

Looks like you're right Ravnis, they look like Eisenia Hortensis or European night crawlers. The information on the web is mixed, however many people claim that they can be used for vermicomposting and they do seem to like my veggie scraps. :)

I guess I will throw a few in my grow beds when they get going.

[mornings]

I think the most ravenous eaters are Eisenia fetida and Lumbricus rubellus. supposedly the former lives longer than the latter but I'm not sure it makes much difference. Both will reproduce quickly as long as there is food available.

In the case of your grow beds, they are not only cleaning up debris, they are providing as much as 50% more in nutrient for your plants and, possibly, avoiding disease problems from fish feces that don't break down easily. Left over root hairs and such get converted too.

Worms also provide a plant food that is almost complete and ready for plants. In effect, there is little or no ammonia, therefore for little strain on your bio-filter. You could read that last as less need for bio-filter. Too, they enhance your bio-filter because they encourage beneficial bacteria and discourage pathogens.

From Clive A Edwards (author of "Biology and Ecology of worms", the "bible on worms, "The earthworms do more than produce nutrients- the microbial activity they promote produces plant growth hormones (which are very soluble) and plant-growth regulators."

What we don't know yet is which are the best suited for GBs. Many APers report the worms just showing up -- but not which species they are (they all look alike to me). I have 7 different species of earthworms in my garden (NRCS told me so), none of which are Eisenia fetida or Lumbricus rubellus. These worms do not compete with each other, they apparently have different functions. World wide there are about 1800 species of ground worms (there many more that actually live in the water).

So much we don't know. But, what's not to like?

The only problem I've ever heard of was where some fisherman has dumped worms in cold forests. These manure worms will destroy the thick layers of organic matter that have built up over centuries that normally protect the soils. If you live in these area be careful what you import.

m

[evan]

thanks for all the good information

I've done way more research recently than I thought I would ever have done on worms..

It seems that the variety I got are not the red wigglers but will still work for vermicomposting and will make great feed for my fish after they start reproducing.

They do reportedly grow slower, however they grow to a larger size. I can take the trade off as I want the larger worms anyways for fishing and feeding to my fish. I've read that the true red wigglers are actually really difficult to place on a hook.

As for placing in my grow bed, I will definitely do this. Many people in several articles have pointed out that these worms won't leave a food source, so as long as my grow bed is somewhat established I'm good to go.

[mornings]

It seems that the variety I got are not the red wigglers but will still work for vermicomposting and will make great feed for my fish after they start reproducing. evan,

If at all possible, try to find out what they are. Depending on results, it might be important.

Thing is, of all the various species, all have different functions or they deal with their functions differently -- in the soil. And we know very little beyond what they do in the soil.


. . . I can take the trade off as I want the larger worms anyways for fishing and feeding to my fish. Taking a few worms for fishing is fine if the specie serves the function in your system. Not sure feeding worms to fish makes much sense. The Worms are a lot more valuable than the fish. And, except for the occasional snack for your fish, taking enough worms out to make a dent in your fish food bill would be self defeating.

m

[evan]

Identification thanks to others and comparing pictures, I havefigured out they're Eisenia Hortensis.

As far as their role in vermicomposting. There's some debate, however the general consensus is that they will work.

Many people claim that they reproduce slower and are not as efficient at processing waste, other studies show otherwise.

My aquaponics system is so small it really wouldn't be a big burden on the worm bin if I supplement the fish's diet with them.

[mornings]

evan,

Thanks for the information.

Thing is, we really don't have any idea what worms do in water beyond what you see -- or how well they do it. The worms you have might actually be better than E.F for this purpose. Who knows?

I can and will ask Dr. Edwards for anything he might know. Even if it's speculation, it's the most knowledgeable speculation around.

One thing to look for is cocoons. If you find cocoons it means, of course, there are reproducing. When I told Dr. Brett Roe about my first experiment having lots of cocoons, he was genuinely surprised. I'm an engineer, not an entomologist I wouldn't have a clue either way.

But my E.F.s have been very re-productive in water.

I've had several people ask me about the business of worm selling. Anglers are not going to be very interested in E.F. But a larger worm might be worth selling. They go for a lot more per pound than fish! And getting worms out of gravel is really simple task -- even easier if worms are larger. Certainly make a lot better business with such worms than selling fish.

Thanks again,

m

[Ravnis]

I've been using the eisinia hortensis to "eat my garbage" for over a year now. They are a composting worm as well. Not as prolific as EF, but do the job. I throw my vegetable scraps and stalks of plants from replanting in the bin and they eat it well. They are marketable because of there larger size. Tilapia will eat them to as I have thrown a few here and there and it looks like a cartoon of someone slurping spaghetti.
The cocoons require moisture to hatch, so the flood and drain growbed provides a perfect environment too. I converted my beds to continous flow several months ago and happy to report that the worms grow and multiply in that too.

[DaveOponic]

When I clean my foam filters I find a lot of tiny red worms. these are apparently not earthworms but midge (like a mosquito) larvae. I have found earthworms on occasions when emptying growbeds but not in any great quantity. With a flood and drain system I wonder if earthworms can survive. On the lawn after a heavy rain, the worms rise to the surface and can be found in the top layers of the soil. In a well filtered gravel or clay grow bed would earthworms really have enough to eat in the absence of solid waste.
At the risk of opening up a can of worms what do you think Gary?

dave

[mornings]

Dave,

If you do not already know it, worms don't drown. They breath through their skin. I have worms in my tank that stay there continuously (I don't have fish, just worms). The only requirement is that the water have plenty of oxygen in it (they can survive on less oxygen than fish, so if you have fish, the worms will do fine in any event. Worms, as strange as it sounds, are better adapted to water than some fish.

Worms move to higher ground after rain because the water is poorly oxygenated or they are just looking for more food.

A flood and drain gravel bed is probably ideal for earth worms, maybe even better than soil. Fine for your fish too as they are not competing for oxygen.

The number of worms has basically to do with food supply -- their population and even worm size is pretty much regulated by availability of food.. Fish feces seems perfect for them. Keep in mind that if you were to decide to feed the worms directly, worms require that their food be pre-digested by animals or bacteria or both.

The tiny worms you mention may indeed be earthworms. They are almost microscopic when they come out of the cocoon. The way to find out is to take a few of them them and put them in some worm bedding with food.

As fish food, worms don't amount to much. It would probably take 8 to 12 pounds of worms (600 to 800 to make a pound) to equate to a pound of high protein fish food.

You ask: "In a well filtered gravel or clay grow bed would earthworms really have enough to eat in the absence of solid waste[?]. If you mean solids are filtered out, then, no, they are unlikely to do much or even survive well. On the other hand, if you have worms, why use a filter? The worms become a filter of sorts that convert solids into nutrients for your plants. They probably leave some solids behind but it would seem they are a very small, if they exist at all.

m

[Ravnis]

Those red worms dave talks about are actually larva. The ones I encountered have 2 "pointy antennas on the "head" end. Having them in the system is supposed to be an indicator of a very stable aquatic system. They are also known as blood worms and some people are sensitive to them. Fry love to eat them and they are a food source for recently hatched fry.

Since I doubled the worms in my system, I have to remove solids now on a monthly basis. I was having to do it daily prior to this. I highly recommend you put composting worms in your growbeds. They will survive in the growbeds whether flood and drain or continous flow. What you could try if still skeptical is empty the contents from your swirl filter into a growbed with worms in it and watch them add the nutrients to your system. The main requirement is that the solids need to stay wet.

[happer]

The worm in the container looks like a night crawler. To big to be red wriggler. In Kansas City i use to go to parking lots after a big rain and collect them. I would get 1 dollar a dozen. The mature ones will grow to stretch 8 to 10 inches. I was making 50 dollars a week collecting them when i was 12 years old.